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Vette447
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Reged: 15/02/09
Posts: 76
Loc: Oklahoma, USA
6.5x54 MS vs 256 Gibbs Magnum
      #383369 - 12/03/24 03:36 PM

I recently acquired a very cool Gibbs MS in 256 Gibbs Magnum. I really like this rifle but can’t find a ton of info on the cartridge. It looks very similar to the 6.5x54. Is it similar? Are they interchangeable like the British rebranding the 9.5x5.7 MS as the 375 Express Rimless? Thanks.

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Marrakai
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Re: 6.5x54 MS vs 256 Gibbs Magnum [Re: Vette447]
      #383377 - 12/03/24 06:58 PM

Please check, but my understanding is that the Gibbs Magnum case is the 7x57 Mauser necked to 6.5 and shortened by 2mm.
This results in a case that is larger in diameter at the head (.473) with a slight taper, whereas the 6.5x54MS is .452 at the head, and any taper of the case is negligible to the eye.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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kuduae
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Re: 6.5x54 MS vs 256 Gibbs Magnum [Re: Marrakai]
      #383385 - 12/03/24 10:58 PM

A friend who owns a G.Gibbs rifle in their proprietary .256 "Magnum" chambering uses RWS 6.5x57 brass, necks shortened by 2 mm, and RCBS 6.5x57 dies for loading. He uses 6.5x57 load data too. You may also use 6.5x55 SE data as a guide.

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bouldersmith
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Reged: 23/03/06
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Re: 6.5x54 MS vs 256 Gibbs Magnum [Re: kuduae]
      #383390 - 13/03/24 04:55 AM

I have a source for RCBS dies if you are interested.

--------------------
New website http://www.bertramandco.com


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93x64mm
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Re: 6.5x54 MS vs 256 Gibbs Magnum [Re: bouldersmith]
      #383393 - 13/03/24 07:03 AM

Should be a pretty efficient cartridge case size per velocity given.
It should outdo the 6.5 Creedmoor if loaded to the RWS brass potential!


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DarylS
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Re: 6.5x54 MS vs 256 Gibbs Magnum [Re: 93x64mm]
      #383397 - 13/03/24 10:28 AM

The 6.5x57 should be a tich better than the .260 Rem. and 6.5x55 - but, just a tich.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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2152hq
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Reged: 20/05/12
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Re: 6.5x54 MS vs 256 Gibbs Magnum [Re: DarylS]
      #383809 - 01/04/24 02:23 AM

I have a 256Gibbs Mag built on a M/Sch by Geo Gibbs Co.

I make brass from 8x57 (cause I have it available.

I size the neck down and push the shoulder back in a shortened 6.5 Swede Mauser FL die.
I find that I must put a taper on the case or better said, narrow the case body from the shoulder an back down a slight amt. I use a 303Brit FL die to do this.
I just use an educated push of the case into the 303 die to get the case tapered down a bit.

Unless I did this, the untapered case would give a false HS feel as the wider shoulder hits the chamber edge. This results in pushing the neck back till the brass chambers and the bolt closes with a bit of resistance which is what I wanted.
But what I had was the shouder pushed too far back and the neck too long and the new case HS'ing against the side wall of the chamber.

It didn't look out of place, but when those orig few cartridges I made up w/o the tapering step were fired, the fireforming produced a cracked shoulder on a couple and the obvious difference betw the fired and unfired case told the story.

All goes well now.
I use 6.5 Swede loading data. 160gr FMJ pulled military bullets.
Excellent accuracy with my Start loading data, it's just a range toy anyway.
I probably didn't need to shorten that 6.5Swede FL die as I had orig, but it was an orphan anyway and still is used to neck size the reloads.

I have seen it said that the 6.5 Gibbs Mag was based on the 6.5 Swede Mauser cart, but the larger base dia of that round will not enter the chamber of this particular rifle.
It's a standard Mauser x57 base dia.

The orig cal of the rifle was 6.5x54M/S with it's smaller base dia (.421?). A surplus Greek WW1 rifle.
The orig Greek M/S magazine is in place and the cart slots are not altered for the slightly larger x57 Mauser round. So they sit atop and straddle the cartridge cutout slots in the mag. But it feeds all 5 just fine.
The cartridge guide ring at the front of the magazine has been reduce/thinned on the inside of it's dia to allow this. I did a bit more work on it to smooth things up. The ring is removeable with 2 small flush headed screws. IIRC when I reinstalled them, I soft soldered them back into place with the ring for extra stength as they are very small and short threaded.

The cartridges sitting a bit higher puts the bullet higher as well.
If I seated the bullets deeper and placed the curve or the bullet (ogive?) under the ring, the ring could have gone unaltered.
Lighter weight bullets would have the same effect .
The orig cal cartridges sit full down in those magazine slots and place the bullets just under that ring at the front, so they feed and rotate within the magazine without a hitch.

Now to fix the detachable 'scope that came on it so the mount doesn't place it at a Zero of about 500yrds.


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85lc
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Re: 6.5x54 MS vs 256 Gibbs Magnum [Re: 2152hq]
      #383817 - 01/04/24 10:30 AM

2152hq,

Excellent write up with great details. Is your barrel a rifle or carbine length?

From your veiw, is the 256 Gibbs ballistically much better than the 6.5x54MS. I quess I am wonderingif the cartridge is that much better or whether it is more of a marketing ploy by Gibbs.

Regardless, it seems like an interesting cartridge which I had not heard of before.

--------------------
RB


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Vette447
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Reged: 15/02/09
Posts: 76
Loc: Oklahoma, USA
Re: 6.5x54 MS vs 256 Gibbs Magnum [Re: 85lc]
      #383853 - 02/04/24 12:21 PM

Quote:

2152hq,

Excellent write up with great details. Is your barrel a rifle or carbine length?

From your veiw, is the 256 Gibbs ballistically much better than the 6.5x54MS. I quess I am wonderingif the cartridge is that much better or whether it is more of a marketing ploy by Gibbs.

Regardless, it seems like an interesting cartridge which I had not heard of before.





This is a question that I have as well. Is the 256 Gibbs Magnum ballistically superior to the 6.5x54MS at all?


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DonZ
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Re: 6.5x54 MS vs 256 Gibbs Magnum [Re: Vette447]
      #383861 - 02/04/24 04:25 PM

I guess it depends on how you define "ballistically superior".

It's similar to the 6.5X55 Swede.

My notes say that a 145 grain bullet is launched at 2,600 fps and 2,178 ft-lbs of energy. That's about 2,950 Joules.

My notes for a 140 grain bullet from a 6.5X54 shows about 2,500 fps and 1,950 ft-lbs of energy, or 2,640 Joules. So the Gibbs would be faster, and has a little more energy.

More accurate? I don't know. Downrange performance (drop, drift) would be heavily dependent on bullet specs (Ballistic Coefficient, Sectional Density). About all I can guess is using the same bullet in each, the Gibbs would be a touch faster. But I don't think a deer would notice the difference.

--------------------
Honor never grows old, and honor rejoices the heart of age...


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2152hq
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Reged: 20/05/12
Posts: 126
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Re: 6.5x54 MS vs 256 Gibbs Magnum [Re: DonZ]
      #383874 - 03/04/24 05:26 AM

I don't know if it's superior to the 6.5 M/S.
It seems to be about the same OAL,,same caliber of course,,the case is a little bigger around so more capacity I'd guess.

I don't know the down range ballistics but a good guess is that the Gibbs has at least some velocity advantage. You can see I'm not in to cronographs, numbers and such
Accuracy would depend on the rifle, bbl, bore condition, HS, ammo and lots of things that two different rifles can't possible match each other to show which is better.

I think the whole idea of the Gibbs Magnum like so many other propietary cartridges was just to be able to get 'their name' on it. Not so much an interest in making a round that was better, though they likely said it was. But instead just a marketing gimmick.


..and my gun is a rifle length bbl.
Built on a Greek M1903 M/S using the orig bbl.
Can't recall the bbl lengh right now though at least 24,,maybe 26".

It has an Aldis Bros scope in pincer (?sp) mounts atop it.
Found it at a gun show in Ohio (OGCA) a few yrs ago late on a Sunday.
No takers , I must have walked by it all day Sat and SUnday.
$250 and it was mine.

A kind soul later offered me $300 for it to relieve me of my poor reasoned purchase.
...Take your sad story walkin' bud..


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Rothhammer1
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Reged: 06/01/17
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Re: 6.5x54 MS vs 256 Gibbs Magnum [Re: 2152hq]
      #383948 - 05/04/24 07:31 PM

Quote:




Found it at a gun show in Ohio (OGCA) a few yrs ago late on a Sunday.
No takers , I must have walked by it all day Sat and SUnday.
$250 and it was mine.






You bought a Gibbs MS for $250. USD?

You, sir, are a stud.

--------------------
Citizen of the Cherokee Nation


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Rothhammer1
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Reged: 06/01/17
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Re: 6.5x54 MS vs 256 Gibbs Magnum [Re: 2152hq]
      #383949 - 05/04/24 07:41 PM

Quote:





The orig cal of the rifle was 6.5x54M/S with it's smaller base dia (.421?). A surplus Greek WW1 rifle.
...
The cartridge guide ring at the front of the magazine has been reduce/thinned on the inside of it's dia to allow this. I did a bit more work on it to smooth things up. The ring is removeable with 2 small flush headed screws. IIRC when I reinstalled them, I soft soldered them back into place with the ring for extra stength as they are very small and short threaded.






There was no cartridge guide ring in a Y1903 (Greek military) MS. That arrangement must have been added to accommodate the different cartridge or a later model magazine was used.

--------------------
Citizen of the Cherokee Nation


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2152hq
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Reged: 20/05/12
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Re: 6.5x54 MS vs 256 Gibbs Magnum [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #383956 - 06/04/24 06:56 AM

Could it be a commercial 1903 rotary/magazine?
I do remember when working on it that there was no ser# on the magazine itself which I thought kind of odd if it was a Military part.
I've never had a Greek M1903, but I have a couple of commercial Steyr 1903 carbines, same for 1908's and a couple 1910's.
I'll sort through the stuff and pull it back out and take a look at it again. Take some pics.
It needs to be shot again too!


Yes it was $250. and it was only 4 or 5yrs ago.
I could not believe no one else had scooped it up.
The person selling it immedietely said to me when when I asked to look at it.."Do you realize what
caliber that is?"

I shrugged and said " 6.5 M/S ? I'd guess.."
He then pointed out the Gibbs caliber marking on the top.
I wasn't entirely familiar with that at the time, but I certainly wasn't going to let that beauty slip away! Perfect bore and all.
The stock shows hunting and carry use, but so do I.

He said several people looked at it but put it right back down when he explained it wasn't in 6.5M/S caliber.
Thank God for that.


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Rothhammer1
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Reged: 06/01/17
Posts: 1826
Loc: The Redwoods of California
Re: 6.5x54 MS vs 256 Gibbs Magnum [Re: 2152hq]
      #383962 - 06/04/24 04:40 PM

Quote:

Could it be a commercial 1903 rotary/magazine?





Only if someone modified it by adding a guide ring.

The 'guide ring' was introduced by Steyr (OWGS) with the M1924 'Sequoia' and appeared on other long magazine MS (so - called 'High Velocity' or M1925) but was not added to M1903 through M1910.

Post WW2 Models of M1950, GK, NO, M1952...had one or more guide rings. Magnum models had two.


M1910, M1924.


M1903, M1910, M1924, 'M1925' (8X60), M1952 (6.5X68).


Magazine housing, Y1903 ('Greek' military MS).


Magazine housing, M1952, .30-'06.


Origimal M1900, prototype of Y1903.

--------------------
Citizen of the Cherokee Nation


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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Re: 6.5x54 MS vs 256 Gibbs Magnum [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #383976 - 07/04/24 03:10 AM

$200.00 is kinda like me picking up a Model 70 for $500.00, that was made in Sept. of 1936. Winchester started making those in April of 1936.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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2152hq
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Reged: 20/05/12
Posts: 126
Loc: USA
Re: 6.5x54 MS vs 256 Gibbs Magnum [Re: DarylS]
      #384135 - 13/04/24 11:52 PM

Finally, the disc camera works again..
Here are some pics of the magazine as it appears Gibbs modified it

They added the bullet guide at the very front of the magazine.
It is held in place with 3 screws..one one each lower side and one in from the bottom that is underneath the latch on the plate itself.

It doesn't appear at least to me that they modified the cartridge cut-outs in the spool.
A factory 6.5x54 M/S fits nice down into the radius. My 6.5 Gibbs mag cart ride just a bit higher due to the larger body dia, but not very much so.

Pic of the cartridges L to Rt:

1..One of my first attempts 256 Gibbs MAg made from surplus 30-06. Neck turned to thin brass wall.
2..Same loaded with 160gr FMJ
3..Same fired in this rifle..note shoulder fireformed forward extreme amt. This is where I was
forming and pushing the shoulder back on the case but getting a false read on the body.
4..FN factory 1930mfg 6.5x54mm M/S rd.





The rifle itself is a Greek military rifle modified and restock to sporter.
The bbl is 26" long. Excl bore.
Sporter sights incl multi leaf rear. Aldis Bros scope in detachable mounts.
I think the scope was added after the rifle was orig built as the View proof on the action ring sits
underneath the overhang of the front scope mount which is dovetailed into the action ring. Hard to punch that into place with the front mount in place.









A Geo Gibbs 'B' series ser# on the recv'r ring on the RH side under the orig ser# (which is also matching on the bbl).
That 'B' ser# also marked on the front face of the trigger guard bow as well.

Top of the bbl at the action engraved for the 256 Gibbs Magnum Cartridge.

I had more pics but now they refuse to show up for the party again.
I'll keep working on it.


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DarylS
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Re: 6.5x54 MS vs 256 Gibbs Magnum [Re: 2152hq]
      #384152 - 14/04/24 03:42 AM

A chamber cast would have shown proper dimensions.
Appears the fired case is still not fully formed, due to the rounded appearing shoulder.
That much "excessive" headspace can be dangerous.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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93x64mm
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Re: 6.5x54 MS vs 256 Gibbs Magnum [Re: DarylS]
      #384158 - 14/04/24 07:26 AM

The 256 Gibbs is definitely an 'improved' 6.5x54 then from those photos!
Hope you get the Full sizing setting depth right - that's one hell of a lot of headspace alright!


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DarylS
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Re: 6.5x54 MS vs 256 Gibbs Magnum [Re: 93x64mm]
      #384160 - 14/04/24 08:19 AM

There's also .017" difference in head diameter and what looks like at least .030" headspace - maybe even .100".

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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2152hq
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Reged: 20/05/12
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Re: 6.5x54 MS vs 256 Gibbs Magnum [Re: DarylS]
      #384178 - 14/04/24 11:04 PM

I have the HS issue all set.
After I fired the first few of the above 6.5Gibbs I made up I realized the shoulder was pushed way too far back and I was seeing my home=made case had headspaced on the side wall instead of the shoulder.

That's when I put the extra step of tapering the case with a 303Brit FL die into play.
I mentioned that in th first post.
That elliminated the false HS reading and put the shoulder itself back in the game.

Then it was easy to form 256 Gibbs Mag with a correct shoulder to HS against.
They still fireform out a tiny bit first time as the taper I put into the case body isn't exact, but minimal to allow correct HS against the new shoulder.
Then simply neck size when reloading from there.
I use 6.5 Swede dies for loading. The FL Size is shortened for this.

I couldn't find any of the new 256Gibbs cases handy to show, but they work just fine.

8mm Mauser brass makes a case that requires no thinning of the neck. The ones in the pic were made of Surplus 30-06 and I did have to thin them. These were outside thinned.
Using 8mm Mauser brass also requires that I run the formed case into the 303Brit die to taper the body down a bit.

So as far as I can see working with my own rifle..
The 256 Gibbs Magnum is made on a standard 30-06 or x57 Mauser case base dia.
Not the slightly larger Swede Mauser case,,and obviously not the small 6.5 M/S case.
At least for my rifle/chamber, the body of the case has slightly more taper to it than the donor case
may have with the correct head size to work from. The 303Brit FL die takes care of that easily.

Was all that worth it to get that cartridge?, I don't know but it shoots very well and it's a fun rifle to reload and 'play' with.
Like most every other propietary cartridge or wildcat, there's a half dozen others around that do basicly the same thing.
But life would be boring with out lots of choices..


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85lc
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Posts: 1031
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Re: 6.5x54 MS vs 256 Gibbs Magnum [Re: 2152hq]
      #384186 - 15/04/24 02:33 AM

2152hq
Great point: "life would be boring with out lots of choices." That is a nice reason for pursuing and reloading for rifles chambered in obsolete propietary and wildcat cartridge.

--------------------
RB


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DarylS
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Re: 6.5x54 MS vs 256 Gibbs Magnum [Re: 85lc]
      #384193 - 15/04/24 02:59 AM

Good move 2152hq. When I work on a new wildcat, I place the shoulder for a "crush" fit on chambering. That way there is no case web stretch. The "crush" fit is verified with felt pen on the shoulder, if the scrubbing on the shoulder of the case to be formed, is not visible.
Used to love working with this "stuff", but now, have plenty of 'good' brass for everything I shoot.
The wildcats are still favoured somewhat.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Parabola
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Reged: 09/01/21
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Loc: England
Re: 6.5x54 MS vs 256 Gibbs Magnum [Re: 2152hq]
      #384487 - 26/04/24 12:44 AM

Thanks for the photos and congratulations on a very astute purchase.

Very nice rifle.

Are you aware that those Aldis scopes (often ex-military released to the trade after WW1) with that enlarged front lens cover have a windage adjustment built into to front lens assembly?

If you unscrew the outer cover you will see an adjustment scale, and rotating the front lens assembly with a flat bladed tool ( be careful to avoid touching the lens itself) rotates a prism that moves the windage from side to side.

The disadvantage of the system (shared by the Pattern 1918 sniper sight) is that it also moves your elevation up or down so zeroing has to be done in 2 stages. first lateral and then vertical with the top drum.


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2152hq
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Reged: 20/05/12
Posts: 126
Loc: USA
Re: 6.5x54 MS vs 256 Gibbs Magnum [Re: Parabola]
      #384570 - 29/04/24 10:44 PM

I was not aware of that adjustment ,,thank you for the info!

As mounted, it shoots high at 100m at it's lowest elevation adj.
Perhaps the idea of the scope was for 'extra' long range and so it's fitted for that, some extreme that I don't have access to for shooting/targeting. 100m is it for me at my range..
I had thought of raising the rear mounting leg a tiny amt by backing out the large headed 'screw' that it fits under. Then fitting a suitible height platform against the recv'r to boost the height and make the fit securely tight again.
I think the front pincer mount will allow the slight movement,,maybe not. I'll have to inspect further.
If it'd work, that'd tip the scope downward a bit and give me a better zero at the shorter ranges and place me within the elevation range the scope allows for those ranges.


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