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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Handguns

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Longknife
.333 member


Reged: 17/04/08
Posts: 269
Loc: Illinois
JOHN!!!! Here it is!
      #383039 - 03/03/24 12:37 AM

Just what you need!!!

Howda

--------------------
Longknife


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lancaster
.470 member


Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 9455
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...
Re: JOHN!!!! Here it is! [Re: Longknife]
      #383040 - 03/03/24 12:47 AM

link dont work, was it this gun? https://live.amoskeagauction.com/lot-det...%3D0%26page%3D1

18 bore cases exist but the gun maybe is a 20 or 16 ga







"Description:

serial #5116, 18 Bore, 7 1/2” barrels with mostly bright very fine bores, the right bore showing a bit more pinprick pitting and light oxidation, and otherwise crisp 9-groove rifling. The barrels of this handsome pistol retain perhaps 70% fading original plum-brown finish with contrasting gray showing some scattered light handling marks and sparse mild oxidation staining, most of the loss due to some areas of lighter gray patina overall. The barrels otherwise retain fine swirling damascus patterns throughout and the solid rib retains crisp “J. BRADDELL & SON. BELFAST” marking. The undersides show period London proof marks and a nominal bore marking of 23, though measurements place them closer to 18 bore (a little over 0.630” caliber). The action and lockplates retain perhaps 30% original case-hardened colors with scattered vibrant patches lurking about the protected areas, the left lockplate in particular with lovely vibrant colors throughout. The balance of the surfaces are toning to a pleasant medium gray-brown patina, both lockplates are maker-marked and the arm is embellished with attractive tasteful light foliate scrollwork and filigree. The checkered walnut stock and forend remain in very fine condition showing just some scattered light dings and handling marks, maintaining an attractive honest appearance with strong checkering throughout and excellent fit. The horn grip cap is intact and remains in near excellent condition. The pistol is sighted with a single medium German silver bead front sight and the barrel lock-up via Jones underlever is solid on-face. Equipped with extractors, double triggers and rebounding hammers which remain crisp. This attractive circa 1880s pistol remains a very fine example of the imposing and much sought-after howdah pistol. (13D11199-44) {ANTIQUE} (7000/9000)
"



--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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lancaster
.470 member


Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 9455
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...
Re: JOHN!!!! Here it is! [Re: lancaster]
      #383041 - 03/03/24 01:00 AM

when being on the website found moore howda sold before
https://live.amoskeagauction.com/lot-det...%3D0%26page%3D1

never see a two barrel, only the four barrel lancaster pistol







must be a .577 tranter caliber

"serial #8117, 577 CF, 6 1/4” barrels with bright very fine oval bores showing a few light pits in the upper bore. This is a very handsome example of these interesting and imposing pistols, the barrels retaining about 60% plus original blue appearing much stronger in ambient light that is fading and toning to a very nice deep plum-brown patina under bright light along with a few light handling marks and minor oxidation speckles. The extractor housing on the left side retains about 85% original bright blue while the action is a relatively even mix of original bright blue and deep plum-brown patina, the rich blue very strong along the sides and protected areas, flaking along the top and backstrap. The spur triggerguard has mostly flaked to a pleasant deep plum-brown and the remaining small parts retain a healthy amount of pale fire blue. The solid barrel rib retains strong Lancaster maker markings and London address, the breech face also Lancaster patent-marked and the arm showing London proofs and neatly engraved “577. C.F.” designation along the left side barrels. These pistols could be ordered with a variety of features, this example equipped with standard double action trigger with finely checkered face, the aforementioned triggerguard spur, grooved backstrap and lanyard ring. The checkered walnut grips remain in very fine condition showing some scattered light dings and handling marks retaining excellent fit. The pistol is equipped with generous undercut v-notch rear sight and German silver blade front, lock-up is solid and the action seems to function well mechanically. Though copies of the records are not included, factory records will show this pistol sold first to Captain (later Colonel) Frederic Natusch Maude, Royal Engineers in October 1889 and was later resold to Captain (later Brigadier General) Wellesley Lynedoch Henry Paget, Royal Horse Artillery in February 1895. Maude (1854-1933) was a fairly prolific military author and photographer notably contributing to the book “The Great War of 189 : A Forecast” (published 1893) which somewhat presciently theorized on an impending world war. Paget (CB, MVO, CMG) (1858-1918) served most notably in the Boer War with gallant service in a least 12 major battles. Only 88 pistols in 577 were manufactured and a small dossier of information regarding the gun is also included. This is a lovely example of the much sought-after Lancaster pistol in arguably the most desirable and impressive chambering available. (13D11199-75) {ANTIQUE} (12,000/18,000)"

Wonderful & Unique Cased Pair Of 12 Bore Single Barrel Underlever Howdah Pistols By E. Jackson
https://live.amoskeagauction.com/lot-det...%3D0%26page%3D1

















"serial #1207 & 1208, 12 bore, 10 5/8” steel-lined damascus barrels with bright excellent bores showing crisp 11-groove rifling. This is a magnificent pair of imposing howdah pistols made circa 1869 and utilizing the Jones underlever system. The barrels retain about 94-95% of their original contrasting plum-brown and gray swirling damascus patterns with most of the loss due to some areas thinning to gunmetal patina, a few light dings and handling marks, and a couple areas of pinprick pitting mostly nearer the muzzles. The frames, back action lockplates, underlevers and buttcaps all retain about 98-99% of their original lovely vibrant case-hardened colors with just a little subtle muting here and there and even retaining a healthy amount of protective lacquer. The triggerguards retain about 98% original bright blue, the attractive forend wedge escutcheons are gold-plated and most of the remaining small parts show lovely brilliant fire blue. The pistols show London proof marks and both barrels and lockplates are neatly engraved with E. Jackson markings, the barrels also with 15 Edgware Road Hyde Park address. The actions are embellished in near full coverage with lovely English fine filigree scrollwork and the triggerguard tangs have a nice little surprise with a finely detailed heron on each. The checkered walnut grips and forends feature robust diamond point checkering and attractive horn schnabel tips, remaining in excellent condition with lovely fit throughout and just showing some expected scattered light dings and handling marks, a bit more noticeable along the grip of pistol 1208. The gold monogram plates atop each wrist are finely engraved with the combined family crests of both the Davies and Lloyd families over the monogram “JDL”. The barrels of course lock-up solidly and are sighted with u-notch rear sights and medium blade fronts. The locks with non-rebounding hammers function crisply and feature sliding safeties. Designed to be fired two-handed, the pistols weigh about 5 pounds each. They remain housed within their original leatherbound oak case that rates very fine, the exterior leather with overall light scuffing, some discoloration, flaking and edge wear to be expected from the years. One of the leather tabs that the intact handle attaches to appears to be an old replacement but this is relatively minor and the brass hardware is otherwise intact, the lid escutcheon very finely engraved with the same familial crests and monogram as both pistols are. There are remnants of an antique New Zealand postage sticker along the base and the interior is lined in green baize that shows some edge wear and scuffing along the dividers and slight discoloration. The inside of the lid shows a mostly intact F. Beesley retailer label that shows a few flaked areas. The case contains a full complement of original accessories including a 12 bore round ball mould with sprue cutter, case sizing tool with fine fire blue, fine condition paper case trimmer, priming/de-priming tool, ball seater, tin of primers, manual case extractor, pewter oil bottle, wad seater, mainspring vise and a pair of keys. Fine rosewood-handled accessories include a firing pin spanner, turnscrew, bristle brush, Hawksley powder measure and cleaning rod. The pistols also include a small dossier of information identifying them to John Davies Lloyd (1850-1878) who inherited one of Wales’s largest estates, Alltyrodyn, but squandered his money on adventure and exploits. Passing away at the young age of 28 from tuberculosis, he left behind a series of contradictory and confusing wills which bogged down the family and even caught the attention of the local newspapers, but the whole matter was eventually settled between the parties involved. Although marked by Elias Jackson, it is most likely that he was the original retailer of the arms, as the Best Quality nature of the work would suggest they were mostly likely made by the likes of a Joseph Manton or James Purdey. Beesley most likely acquired them ten to fifteen years after their manufacture on trade or consignment as evidenced by another interesting piece of provenance. An original letter from Beesley is included, dated September 24, 1891 and addressed to a Lieutenant W. Steward, Royal Navy who purchased the pistols. The letter, written and signed by Frederick Beesley, thanks Lt. Steward for his cheque sent to balance his account, and goes on to offer advice on how to load proper cartridges for the pistols. This is an exceptional and very likely one-of-a-kind pair of pistols with an interesting connection to a prominent Welsh family that would make a spectacular addition to the finest collection of British firearms. (13G11043-1) {ANTIQUE} (40,000/60,000)"

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27606
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: JOHN!!!! Here it is! [Re: lancaster]
      #383052 - 03/03/24 07:54 AM

NICE! Cool letter, too, giving the load & a decent load at that, 68gr. powder.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 40552
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: JOHN!!!! Here it is! [Re: lancaster]
      #383054 - 03/03/24 03:06 PM

Long knife and Lancaster,

Very nice. I wish. The right one will appear when I'm out of sufficient funds.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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Longknife
.333 member


Reged: 17/04/08
Posts: 269
Loc: Illinois
Re: JOHN!!!! Here it is! [Re: NitroX]
      #383065 - 04/03/24 12:13 AM

Lancaster, Yep that's it!!

--------------------
Longknife


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NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 40552
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: JOHN!!!! Here it is! [Re: lancaster]
      #383078 - 04/03/24 05:20 PM

Quote:

link dont work, was it this gun? https://live.amoskeagauction.com/lot-det...%3D0%26page%3D1

18 bore cases exist but the gun maybe is a 20 or 16 ga







"Description:

serial #5116, 18 Bore, 7 1/2” barrels with mostly bright very fine bores, the right bore showing a bit more pinprick pitting and light oxidation, and otherwise crisp 9-groove rifling. The barrels of this handsome pistol retain perhaps 70% fading original plum-brown finish with contrasting gray showing some scattered light handling marks and sparse mild oxidation staining, most of the loss due to some areas of lighter gray patina overall. The barrels otherwise retain fine swirling damascus patterns throughout and the solid rib retains crisp “J. BRADDELL & SON. BELFAST” marking. The undersides show period London proof marks and a nominal bore marking of 23, though measurements place them closer to 18 bore (a little over 0.630” caliber). The action and lockplates retain perhaps 30% original case-hardened colors with scattered vibrant patches lurking about the protected areas, the left lockplate in particular with lovely vibrant colors throughout. The balance of the surfaces are toning to a pleasant medium gray-brown patina, both lockplates are maker-marked and the arm is embellished with attractive tasteful light foliate scrollwork and filigree. The checkered walnut stock and forend remain in very fine condition showing just some scattered light dings and handling marks, maintaining an attractive honest appearance with strong checkering throughout and excellent fit. The horn grip cap is intact and remains in near excellent condition. The pistol is sighted with a single medium German silver bead front sight and the barrel lock-up via Jones underlever is solid on-face. Equipped with extractors, double triggers and rebounding hammers which remain crisp. This attractive circa 1880s pistol remains a very fine example of the imposing and much sought-after howdah pistol. (13D11199-44) {ANTIQUE} (7000/9000)
"






I'm wondering re the making of a modern Howdah from a modern side by side shotgun. The locks or side plates of a pistol bend downwards more than most shotguns. All, some? I don't know. A pistol ideally has external hammers. If the locks or more accurately the plates need to be bent downwards, how much of the internal workings of the locks of an hammer shotgun are behind those plates? How much of the trigger mechanism?

Possibly a hammer shotgun with shorter side plates/locks could be sourced to be modified.

12-bore is pretty large. 16-bore or 20-bore might be better. Old 16-bores might have hammers.

Either leave them as is, smooth bore. Or sleeve or add rifle barrels as required. Expensive!

Any legalities aside.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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lancaster
.470 member


Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 9455
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...
Re: JOHN!!!! Here it is! [Re: NitroX]
      #391355 - 28/04/25 02:40 PM

was maybe not build for a tiger hunt but this 16 ga double pinfire with blackpowder and a roundball will do the job https://auctionet.com/de/4028514-lefaucheux-kaliber-16-polig-zusatzliche-nr-fehlt









--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27606
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: JOHN!!!! Here it is! [Re: lancaster]
      #391364 - 28/04/25 11:30 PM

Husqvarna M20 with back action locks, hammers and Lefaucheux under lever action in 16 or 20 bore anyone?
Seems to me I did a thread here on mine. It had a 13 bore straight rifled tube on the right and 16 smooth bore on the left.
They also came in 20x20 and 16x16.
On mine, both barrels were chambered for 16 bore cases. Originally, the straight rifled tube got a brass case with round ball and the left, a paper case with shot. I used shot in both for a modified pattern from the left bl. and open pattern from the right.
A simple restock & barrel shortening (where legal) could have changed my gun into the one Lancaster just posted above.


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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27606
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: JOHN!!!! Here it is! [Re: DarylS]
      #391365 - 28/04/25 11:42 PM

I think perhaps the gun Lancaster posted at the start of this thread might "take" brass 20 bore cases.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Jim_C
.300 member


Reged: 09/08/14
Posts: 180
Loc: USA
Re: JOHN!!!! Here it is! [Re: NitroX]
      #391396 - 30/04/25 02:26 PM

Quote:


I'm wondering re the making of a modern Howdah from a modern side by side shotgun. The locks or side plates of a pistol bend downwards more than most shotguns. All, some? I don't know. A pistol ideally has external hammers. If the locks or more accurately the plates need to be bent downwards, how much of the internal workings of the locks of an hammer shotgun are behind those plates? How much of the trigger mechanism?

Possibly a hammer shotgun with shorter side plates/locks could be sourced to be modified.

12-bore is pretty large. 16-bore or 20-bore might be better. Old 16-bores might have hammers.

Either leave them as is, smooth bore. Or sleeve or add rifle barrels as required. Expensive!

Any legalities aside.




If I've done this right, you should see a pic of the guts of a lock like that on the Braddell & Son and the Lefaucheux pistols.

Moving the guts doesn't work well, better to start with a lock engineered to have the desired curvature for the pistol grip. However, if you look at the Lefaucheux pistol, you can see how they lowered the rear of the lock plate to allow for the use of straighter locks. Not as elegant, but it might be an option.


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Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3691
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: JOHN!!!! Here it is! [Re: Jim_C]
      #391412 - 01/05/25 10:23 PM

My solution was to source a bar-action hammer-gun rather than back-actioned examples with the problems described.
Trouble is, by the time the back-action lock was superceded by the bar-action, the Jones under-lever was already a thing of the past and the top-lever was king.
Under-lever bar-actioned hammer-guns are rare as rocking-horse sh!t!
Top-lever howdah pistols are a problem because the plod tend to regard them as sawn-off shotguns, and in any case they put the web of the firing hand at risk.
I have sourced a back-actioned hammer gun with a side-lever that should do the job.
It is 12-bore and I will need rifled 16-bore inserts, slow twist for round ball, to complete the project.
This process will change the firearm class in my jurisdiction from "A" (shotguns & rimfire) to "H" (handguns) and I can't do that on my basic armourer's licence so would need a gunsmith, presumably with special permission from the plod.
I can do everything up to cutting the 12-bore barrels to pistol length.
Unsurprisingly, the project is on hold for the time being...

The examples of original howdah pistols you guys have posted above are marvelous things and an endless source of inspiration!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 40552
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: JOHN!!!! Here it is! [Re: Marrakai]
      #391546 - 11/05/25 06:16 PM

Marrakai, I hope you get yours done one day.

I hope to see some Howdah pistols in the UK. Maybe at Leeds Museum if I get there.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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