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NitroXAdministrator
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Cap and Ball BP Revolvers
      #382324 - 04/02/24 10:51 PM

Had fun with some BP handguns this week. A club member gave me a go with his Remington .44 cap and ball revolver. Then his 1873 Colt .45. Another gave me a shot with his single muzzle loader, a handgun similar to a Le Page, in .45.

I want one, two, more! Good fun.

Maybe a Colt 1861 in .45, or a Colt Navy 1851 I think are .44.

Any shoot them? Tell me about it.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

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"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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450_EXPRESS
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Re: Cap and Ball BP Revolvers [Re: NitroX]
      #382330 - 05/02/24 04:02 AM

The first pistol I bought when I was a teenager back in the early 70's was a replica Colt 1860 Army .44 great fun to shoot. Just used Crisco over the chamber mouths and never had a problem with chain fires. Reasonably accurate, unfortunately it was one of the guns I had to sell to pay for my first English double rifle and never have replaced it. The Colt Navy 1851 was .36 cal but I have seen some replicas in .44 Been thinking about either a 2nd or 3rd model Colt's Dragoon (replica) may have to get one just because.

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DarylS
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Re: Cap and Ball BP Revolvers [Re: NitroX]
      #382331 - 05/02/24 04:12 AM

First of all, they are called .44's as that is close to the bore measurement. Groove to groove, they are all .45's.
The .36 models, mostly shoot .375" balls. My bro uses .380's in his pair of 51's that he used in cowboy action shooting.
He had to go to slugs in them to get them knock over the plates needed. He's worked on them and they are VERY accurate.
The Uberti "Colt" revolvers are likely the best of the repros. An 1851 is a .36.
The 1860's are the Army .44's & usually are decent shooting revolvers, but can use some help, note below.
The Uberti company made some civilian model 1860's that had a fluted cylinder. I had one of those for a while. We (bro and I) bored out the cylinders to .457" accept a .460" ball as the barrel's grooves were .456". As the gun came from the factory, as are most of the replicas, the barrels groove to groove measurement is larger than the cylinder holes. This modification made them (the Walker and the Army) shoot better than about any modern revolver that did not come from a custom factory.
We were shooting sub 2" groups at 25 yards with them both.
Also, the Remington 1958's I have no experience shooting, but some like them. Not many people corrected the cylinder/barrel groove problem or even know about it.
I think the Walker .44 is a model of 1847. They ALWAYS drop the lever, every shot from recoil. The design of the post/spring keeper is a poor design. Taylor's was very accurate after the modification. Just a few years back, he managed to buy it back from the widow of the guy he sold it to, decades ago.
The Paterson (note the spelling) is a .36 seems to me. It is pronounced Pate er son, not Patt er son.
Most everyone makes that mistake. Old Lester H. Hawkes corrected me on that. He had one (original) that was a very "good shooter".
I should add here, that Les said it was a very good aerial shooter. One day I was out at his "diggins" and had my service revolver, a 5" model 10 S&W. We did some aerial shooting with it and he taught me how. What a blast, shooting hand tossed chunks of coal.
A few years later, I taught Taylor how to do it with our service revolvers, out at the Squamish, B.C. range. The easiest gun of all for that was the Ruger 4" .22 Semi auto. It was just a natural pointing pistol. I suspect a 1911 might also work well, but never tried one for that shooting. Sorry for getting off topic.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Cap and Ball BP Revolvers [Re: 450_EXPRESS]
      #382342 - 05/02/24 03:00 PM

Those Colt Dragoons are heavy pistols. One of the guys at the shoot had one.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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Re: Cap and Ball BP Revolvers [Re: DarylS]
      #382343 - 05/02/24 04:12 PM

Quote:

First of all, they are called .44's as that is close to the bore measurement. Groove to groove, they are all .45's.




So the Colt .44s and the Colt .45s are both .45s? But different sized balls?

Quote:


The Uberti "Colt" revolvers are likely the best of the repros. An 1851 is a .36.
The 1860's are the Army .44's & usually are decent shooting revolvers, but can use some help, note below.




I'd like a .45. Standardise on the size. But overwise a .44.

Quote:


The Uberti company made some civilian model 1860's that had a fluted cylinder. I had one of those for a while. We (bro and I) bored out the cylinders to .457" accept a .460" ball as the barrel's grooves were .456". As the gun came from the factory, as are most of the replicas, the barrels groove to groove measurement is larger than the cylinder holes. This modification made them (the Walker and the Army) shoot better than about any modern revolver that did not come from a custom factory.




That sounds annoying. Smaller cylinders than the bore.

Good to know about the Uberti.

Quote:


We were shooting sub 2" groups at 25 yards with them both.
Also, the Remington 1958's I have no experience shooting, but some like them. Not many people corrected the cylinder/barrel groove problem or even know about it.




The Remington Model I shot was accurate.

I knew Daryl would be a great source of information on cap and ball revolvers.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


Edited by NitroX (05/02/24 04:59 PM)


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DarylS
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Re: Cap and Ball BP Revolvers [Re: NitroX]
      #382355 - 06/02/24 05:22 AM

I haven't shot any for a bunch of years, but got started on them in the mid 1970's.

Actually, the 1873 .45 Colt Revolver had a(bout) a .454" groove diameter and shot .454" bullets.

The model 1860 Army used .451" to .454" balls in the slightly undersized cylinders, but also had "about" .454" groove diameter.
Because the bore diameter is "about" .44(something), they were called .44's, same verbiage used in muzzleloaders, most English & many European CF rifles & handguns where the bore diameter is called the calibre, not the groove to groove diameter. Named by groove diameter appears to be a "later" American & Euro. designation. Of course, they also named some calibres verbiage that had nothing to do with any actual dimensions of the gun (.44 Spl., .44 mag., .444 Marlin)

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Huvius
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Re: Cap and Ball BP Revolvers [Re: NitroX]
      #382356 - 06/02/24 05:31 AM

I own a few - Walker, 1851 Navy one in 36 and one in 44 which is a “civilian” model.
The nice thing about the 44 is that it is made exactly as the 36 but has a bigger bore so is actually a bit lighter than the 36.

You’re not kidding about the Walkers and Dragoons - they are heavy but you can put a lot of powder in them too!

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Re: Cap and Ball BP Revolvers [Re: Huvius]
      #382364 - 06/02/24 10:16 AM

They (all) will actually hold a heavier charge of Swiss powder than GOEX, due to the tighter 'pouring' packing of the Swiss powder. I found this when testing light measures. The Swiss, due to it's finish and perhaps harder grains, packs MORE into a stricken charge.
IIRC, we used 50gr. 3F in Taylor's Walker, whereas the 1860 Army held only about 30gr.
Huvius, what charge does the .44 on the '51 Navy frame hold?

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Huvius
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Re: Cap and Ball BP Revolvers [Re: DarylS]
      #382366 - 06/02/24 12:11 PM

Daryl, I've shot it with 20grs of 3F and a roundball but I think 30grs is the max in the wedge frame guns, not sure.

I forgot that I also had a Colt reissue 36cal Navy (the one with the squared nickeled trigger guard and a 44 Army with the fluted cylinder.
The top two are the 36 Navy and the 44 Navy - you can see the 44 has a flare in the cylinder for the bigger holes.









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Re: Cap and Ball BP Revolvers [Re: Huvius]
      #382370 - 06/02/24 05:40 PM

Huvius Wow,

Looks good. Some nice pieces.

Who are the makers? Any pluses, minuses? Thanks.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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93x64mm
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Re: Cap and Ball BP Revolvers [Re: NitroX]
      #382371 - 06/02/24 07:15 PM

Very nice pieces there Huvius!
If these are originals then they would be in exceptional condition!!!!


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DarylS
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Re: Cap and Ball BP Revolvers [Re: 93x64mm]
      #382381 - 07/02/24 03:31 AM

Ahh yeah - .36 Navy below the 1860. In "Firearms of the American West 1866-1894, the authors talk of the soldiers (and civilians) "running buffalo" & shooting them from horseback for camp/fort food.
The Walkers that survived or had steel cylinders installed, were preferred, however the 1860 also worked. I suspect they were using conical loads, not round ball, but the Walker or Dragoons with round balls shooting 50gr. of power or more likely would work.
"It" was stated, that one of these guns noted above, held 6 buffalo in it.
They also stated they could not kill a buffalo with a .36.
On the other hand, the older .54 Martial pistols were more decisive.
The civilians were more likely to use plains-style rifles, SxS 12 bores, dueling or other pistols, loaded up a bit higher than normal.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Huvius
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Re: Cap and Ball BP Revolvers [Re: NitroX]
      #382383 - 07/02/24 04:17 AM

Quote:

Huvius Wow,

Looks good. Some nice pieces.

Who are the makers? Any pluses, minuses? Thanks.





The Walker is an Armi San Marco special engraved version.
The 1860 Army is a Uberti.
The Navy with the squared trigger guard is a Colt.
The rest are made by Pietta.

I think they are all pretty comparable but agree that the Ubertis are a little better finished. It is a Cimarron retailed pistol and I think they may specify better finish from Uberti.

https://www.cimarron-firearms.com/

The Colt is, of course, overall a nicer pistol except the nickle is spotting and flecking so to get it back to 100% those parts would need to be replated. I bought it that way at a discount.
No idea if Colt actually manufactured their guns or got the parts from Italy.

The Pietta prices run about 20-25% lower than the Ubertis but on the second hand market none of them are what I'd call expensive.
With guns like these - which will be shot a lot and scrubbed clean a lot and holstered a lot, I think a well used example is actually preferred to a new one, especially when they are so cheap!

The Navy and Army are so good in the hand and are such natural pointing pistols, once you get practiced, it's not too hard to outshoot the guys at the range with their semi autos.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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DarylS
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Re: Cap and Ball BP Revolvers [Re: Huvius]
      #382385 - 07/02/24 06:50 AM

The "Colt marked" Navy's are Uberti made. "Made for Colt by Uberti" used to be stamped on the top flat, at least was on 2 I saw in a local store - several or more decades ago.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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DarylS
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Re: Cap and Ball BP Revolvers [Re: DarylS]
      #382386 - 07/02/24 06:53 AM

I really liked the Civilian (fluted) model 1860 I had. I can't remember why I sold it "back" to my brother.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Huvius
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Re: Cap and Ball BP Revolvers [Re: DarylS]
      #382389 - 07/02/24 02:53 PM

Brothers are that way - believe me, I have seven of them…

The funny thing is, these pistols are so much fun and so reasonably priced that one has zero reason to let them go.
Also, there’s some comfort in knowing that if you have caps, you could always cast your own balls and even make your own black powder to feed them.
Sort of a perfect self sufficient firearm…

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Cap and Ball BP Revolvers [Re: Huvius]
      #382391 - 07/02/24 05:39 PM

Quote:


Also, there’s some comfort in knowing that if you have caps, you could always cast your own balls and even make your own black powder to feed them.
Sort of a perfect self sufficient firearm…




100%

I've thought of that. Muzzleloaders. Shotguns. But also cased rifles such as the NEs, bore rifles, .46.70, .303s.

Lead bullets home made. Black powder home made. Stored supply of cases. The primers and caps are the difficulty, Buy thousands.

A Colt .45 Long Colt cartridge revolver can bevshotlead bullets, BP. Match a lever action rifle and a revolver, Return to 1873, cowboy action competitions, or the post zombie apocalypse

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


Edited by NitroX (07/02/24 11:57 PM)


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DarylS
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Re: Cap and Ball BP Revolvers [Re: NitroX]
      #382392 - 08/02/24 04:13 AM

I have bullet and/or ball moulds for every rifle I own - except 9.3, however, I have a sizer to size down the .375's I cast, so NP on that calibre either.
Multiple moulds and moulds for calibres I don't own, and likely never will, like .277", but multiple moulds for those I do.
83 sets of mould blocks now & 42 sets of loading dies.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Huvius
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Re: Cap and Ball BP Revolvers [Re: DarylS]
      #382393 - 08/02/24 06:08 AM

Quote:

…83 sets of mould blocks now & 42 sets of loading dies.




Amateur…

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93x64mm
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Re: Cap and Ball BP Revolvers [Re: Huvius]
      #382394 - 08/02/24 06:58 AM

Quote:

Quote:

…83 sets of mould blocks now & 42 sets of loading dies.




Amateur…




Oh boy I feel rather inadequate........8 & 13 respectively
Just goes to show the level of knowledge out there for you guys!
Always something to learn in this game


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DarylS
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Re: Cap and Ball BP Revolvers [Re: Huvius]
      #382401 - 08/02/24 08:13 AM

Quote:

Quote:

…83 sets of mould blocks now & 42 sets of loading dies.



Amateur…




Yeah, I know, it's embarrassing for me. Letting moulds and dies go with rifles I sell has led to this disgraceful condition.
84 sets of blocks. I forgot the 4-cavity mould for my (4) .25 calibre air rifles. Already had 3 or 4 moulds suitable for the low powered .45 cal. air rifle.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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93x64mm
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Re: Cap and Ball BP Revolvers [Re: DarylS]
      #382411 - 09/02/24 07:17 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

…83 sets of mould blocks now & 42 sets of loading dies.



Amateur…




Yeah, I know, it's embarrassing for me. Letting moulds and dies go with rifles I sell has led to this disgraceful condition.
84 sets of blocks. I forgot the 4-cavity mould for my (4) .25 calibre air rifles. Already had 3 or 4 moulds suitable for the low powered .45 cal. air rifle.




Well you'll just have to buy rifles to suit your dies then mate......problem solved!


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DarylS
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Re: Cap and Ball BP Revolvers [Re: 93x64mm]
      #382413 - 09/02/24 09:51 AM

I am only missing a few rifles but yes, those should be covered too.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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