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CJF
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Reged: 07/08/17
Posts: 274
Loc: United States
John Dickson 450 BPE hammer double
      #379587 - 24/09/23 07:15 AM

Four years ago I acquired my first double rifle, a 500 BPE by John Dickson, from 1882. Since then I've been learning a bit about reloading and moving some older pieces out to chase more double rifles. Earlier this year I picked up a second Dickson, in 450 BPE, from 1888. There were a few things needing addressing, such as mistimed screws and an underlever that wasn't tight enough to the guard, but overall the 450 is a pretty gun. Steve Bertram set it right and I've had it back and now to the range so I thought I'd share some pictures.

But first, I need to head out to dinner to celebrate my youngest daughter's birthday.

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CJF
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Re: John Dickson 450 BPE hammer double [Re: CJF]
      #379592 - 25/09/23 12:00 AM

Seller's description "JOHN DICKSON & SON (63 PRINCES STREET, EDINBUROUGH) DOUBLE RIFLE UNDERLEVER .430 BORE 28" BBL WOOD STOCK, USED GUN 88% CONDITION"

Bores are excellent. Standard (non-Henry) rifling. Rifle has seen extensive use and case colors are almost entirely gone except for inside of underlever. Engraving is still quite sharp. Rear sight is a shallow 'V' that I find surprisingly easy to use.

Dickson's has provided their records, showing the rifle was delivered in October 1888.

The workshop ledger entry notes
Delivery of a second quality double centre fire breach loading rifle in .450 with Jones rotary underlever. Conventional stock measurements with pistol-grip finished with steel heelpate. Weight 9lbs, 3ozs. Original cost was £35, including a case. (This would be £5,820 today, or $6462 US$. My actual investment, including fees and minor repairs, was substantially less. I didn't get the case, but that's ok

They nicely included information on the original owner:

What we know about the original owner
Francis John Carruthers was born on the 15th March 1868 at the family home of Dormont House, Dalton, Lanarkshire. He was the son of William Francis Carruthers (10th of Dormont) and Fanny Madeliene Turner.

He joined the military and made it his lifetime career. He was Lieutenant-Colonel to the late Kings Own Scottish Borderers, which involved campaigns in Egypt in 1888 and in South Africa during 1900-02. He married Olive Christian Johnstone-Douglas, daughter of Arthur Henry Johnstone-Douglas and Jane Maitland Hathorn-Stewart, on the 20th Dec 1905. He was also a Brigadier for the Royal Company of Archers, Lord Lieutenant of Dumfries, Queen’s Bodyguard for Scotland in 1900 and Deputy Assistant Director at the War Office, 1915-19. He then went on to become Brevet Lieutenant-Colonel in 1917 as well as Honorary Colonel 1931-1936, 5th Battalion before his appointment as H.M. Lieutenant in 1935 and C.B. in 1943. He died on the 22nd May 1945.

The Carruthers family were good customers of Dickson’s, Francis John’s father buying a number of guns and both Francis John (No. 4210) and his brother, William Frederick (No. 4186) receiving guns for their 21st Birthdays.





Edited by CJF (25/09/23 01:10 AM)

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CJF
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Re: John Dickson 450 BPE hammer double [Re: CJF]
      #379593 - 25/09/23 12:13 AM

Some of these pictures are from the original auction listing and some are my own - both before and after Steve helped out. Load development is making progress, with the leading loads being 350 gr .458" bullets, patched and unpatched, over 110gr 2Fg Swiss. Given the recoil, I'm going to try next 110 1.5Fg Swiss and 105gr loads. I have lighter bullets on order too. I would welcome any recommendations on lighter recoiling loads as my shoulder is really complaining about what I'm doing (I fell last year training for the NYC marathon and something in the right shoulder isn't 100%...hurts like hell after 10 rounds)




















Edited by CJF (25/09/23 12:24 AM)

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CJF
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Re: John Dickson 450 BPE hammer double [Re: CJF]
      #379594 - 25/09/23 12:22 AM

110gr FFg Swiss, .458" 350 gr LFN, not patched





110gr FFg Swiss, .458" 350 gr LFN, patched

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CJF
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Re: John Dickson 450 BPE hammer double [Re: CJF]
      #379595 - 25/09/23 12:27 AM













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DarylS
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Re: John Dickson 450 BPE hammer double [Re: CJF]
      #379599 - 25/09/23 04:18 AM

RCBS makes a 300gr.FN mould. These vere exceptionally accurate in a .45 Cal. rifle i had when driven at 1,740fps.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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fjrdoc
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Re: John Dickson 450 BPE hammer double [Re: DarylS]
      #379600 - 25/09/23 07:40 AM

She sure is a beauty!

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degoins
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Re: John Dickson 450 BPE hammer double [Re: fjrdoc]
      #379611 - 25/09/23 09:28 PM

Lovely rifle.....thanks for sharing!

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3DogMike
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Re: John Dickson 450 BPE hammer double [Re: DarylS]
      #379614 - 26/09/23 01:20 AM

Quote:

RCBS makes a 300gr.FN mould. These vere exceptionally accurate in a .45 Cal. rifle i had when driven at 1,740fps.


+1
I shoot the same bullet out of my Cogswell & Harrison “Tranter Double Patent” single shot .500/.450 #1 Express that has Henry rifling, exceptionally accurate. With 5744 and 1700’/sec I use a Lyman #2 mix. Years ago when my eyes were better it shot sub 1” groups.
- Mike

--------------------
"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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CJF
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Re: John Dickson 450 BPE hammer double [Re: 3DogMike]
      #379623 - 26/09/23 03:35 AM

This RCBS mould?

RCBS 2-Cavity Bullet Mold 45-300-FN 45 Caliber (458 Diameter) 300 Grain Flat Nose Gas Check
Product #: 173356 Manufacturer #: 82051 UPC #: 076683820518

Midway has it. Looks like a double cavity gas check. Sound right?

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3DogMike
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Re: John Dickson 450 BPE hammer double [Re: CJF]
      #379638 - 26/09/23 09:04 AM

Quote:

This RCBS mould?

RCBS 2-Cavity Bullet Mold 45-300-FN 45 Caliber (458 Diameter) 300 Grain Flat Nose Gas Check
Product #: 173356 Manufacturer #: 82051 UPC #: 076683820518

Midway has it. Looks like a double cavity gas check. Sound right?


Yes, that is the one
- Mike

--------------------
"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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DarylS
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Re: John Dickson 450 BPE hammer double [Re: 3DogMike]
      #379639 - 26/09/23 12:45 PM

I changed one cavity in mine to case a hollow nosed bullet. It weighed 300gr., while the FN straight from my mould cast at 322gr. in my alloy.
I shot 2 elk with it. One dropped at the shot, a 75 yard shot, while the other walked about 70 yards. It was about 110yards away at the shot.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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TH44
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Re: John Dickson 450 BPE hammer double [Re: DarylS]
      #379665 - 27/09/23 09:40 AM

I have just noticed the post (failure of all things mental now endemic)

That is a seriously nice rifle, by a top maker, better than mine (although mine not by Dickson)

Many thanks for posting, here in the UK where I am (the South West) away from civilisation, still good to see such fine examples (or any!)

Good luck in your shooting, always difficult here

TH

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CJF
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Re: John Dickson 450 BPE hammer double [Re: TH44]
      #379670 - 27/09/23 11:11 AM

Thank you all for the kind words on the rifle and the advice re the mould, which I have on order.

I have a few commitments coming up over the next three weeks but I’ll try to post an update with more pictures and a new range report as soon as possible.

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CJF
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Re: John Dickson 450 BPE hammer double [Re: 3DogMike]
      #384649 - 03/05/24 05:39 AM

Quote:

...
+1
I shoot the same bullet out of my Cogswell & Harrison “Tranter Double Patent” single shot .500/.450 #1 Express that has Henry rifling, exceptionally accurate. With 5744 and 1700’/sec I use a Lyman #2 mix. Years ago when my eyes were better it shot sub 1” groups.
- Mike



Mike - I'll start a new thread on it after the rifle arrives, but I will soon also be the proud owner of a Cogswell & Harrison "Tranter Double Patent" single shot rifle. I bid on it at what I thought was a low ball offer (I'm trying to be good while I'm awaiting receipt of new double rifle) but I thought it was unlikely I'd win at my bid amount, and if I did, it would be a very good buy. We'll see once it's in hand. For what it's worth, I had never even heard about Tranter double patent rifles till I started researching this one. I just thought it was a large bore sporting martini with promise. Barrel was marked with Henry rifling and made by A&T, so the original quality was there.

Does yours have the large swinging safety on the right side of the receiver?

Some pics should be available at auction site for awhile. Again, I'll post a dedicated thread on this later.

Chris

https://hibid.com/lot/193997626/engraved-cogswell-and-harrison-henry-martini-rifle









Edited by CJF (03/05/24 05:54 AM)

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3DogMike
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Re: John Dickson 450 BPE hammer double [Re: CJF]
      #384673 - 04/05/24 08:43 AM

Chris,
Exactly like mine save that your incoming one looks to have a leaf sights and ladder sight combo sight. Mine is just 3 leaf sights, 1 standing & 2 folding.
Yes to the large swinging safety. If I remember correctly once the breech block is removed the safety unwinds counter clockwise for further disassembly.
Apparently not many produced and even fewer known examples. Mine is Tranter #242

Be interested to see if it is .500/.450 #1 Eley (Express) like mine.
- Mike

--------------------
"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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CJF
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Posts: 274
Loc: United States
Re: John Dickson 450 BPE hammer double [Re: 3DogMike]
      #384778 - 11/05/24 09:14 AM

Mike,

I'll get pictures up tomorrow, but so far I'm very pleased with the rifle that arrived today. Rear site has a standing 100 yard sight, folding sites for 200 and 300 yards and then a ladder going out to 1,000 yards.

Barrel is oval/ovate? and appears to be browned steel vs damascus, but not 100% on that.

Forearm removed shows the proofs and a marking for 52 bore, which is tighter than most 450BPEs at 0.447", if I recall correctly. Chamber is cut for a 500BPE case rim and one goes in for 1 7/8"s before hitting the shoulder, based on a quick and crude measurement. Henry rifling.

I'm going to clean the bore and I'll do a chamber cast, but based on your rifle and what wikipedia is showing for the 500/450 #1, I would expect that's the round for this rifle.

I'll be reading the article and studying the pictures in it to figure out how to reassemble the action, as the hammer fired after I removed the bolt and so far I'm not getting it back together yet. Unfortunately these aren't common, so I'm not expecting a youtube video is out there

Fun fact - this auction was out of TX and was the estate of author Edwin “Bud” Shrake, who wrote screen plays as well as Harvey Penick's Little Red Book on golf. I bought and read that back in the day before I gave up that game.

Chris

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.500/450_N...s_cartridge.jpg

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