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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Lee Speed Forum & Archive

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RLR
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Reged: 02/06/23
Posts: 6
Loc: Washington
LSA “Lee-Speed” sporting rifle
      #377811 - 05/07/23 03:14 AM

I’ve always wanted a legitimate Lee-Speed sporting rifle. Just like most, the urge hit after seeing “Ghost in the Darkness”. A little over a year ago, I happened to spot on tucked under a Boys anti tank rifle at a gun show. The price was about right, so it came home with me. The front sight insert was damaged, and will eventually be replaced with a more suitable replacement, but for now an insert from a shot out Mauser barrel I had seems to work quite well with a fine sight hold as I prefer. I do wish I could an original front sight hood, but I know I’ll simply have to make a few from scratch instead, hopefully one will look proper. There are no Lee Speed patents on the rifle, and judging by the proofs I’m lead to believe it is an interwar built rifle, likely of the late 1920s. Any insight would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!













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“Don’t be noble, it’s ruining the country.” -The Old Man via Robert Ruark


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lancaster
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Reged: 06/05/08
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Re: LSA “Lee-Speed” sporting rifle [Re: RLR]
      #377855 - 08/07/23 01:26 PM

I think you got a very good one. suspect its a 303 brit? anyway a nice rifle.

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Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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fjrdoc
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Reged: 20/05/22
Posts: 213
Loc: United States
Re: LSA “Lee-Speed” sporting rifle [Re: lancaster]
      #377857 - 08/07/23 07:34 PM

Beautiful wood on that Lee

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Huvius
.416 member


Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 3557
Loc: Colorado
Re: LSA “Lee-Speed” sporting rifle [Re: fjrdoc]
      #377864 - 09/07/23 10:26 AM

Agree on the wood - very nice.
I must admit that I don't know when the "Lee Speed" patent stamps ran their course or, exactly, what those patents actually covered.
Maybe your's for all purposes is a Lee Speed just not marked so.
The front sight on your rifle looks awfully Webley like to me the way it's shaped and sleeved onto the barrel. I've seen very much the same sight on some bigger bore single shots some with the grooves for the hood and some without.

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He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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superbee
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Reged: 09/05/20
Posts: 11
Loc: canada
Re: LSA “Lee-Speed” sporting rifle [Re: Huvius]
      #377866 - 09/07/23 10:44 AM

Very nice LSA!
Only about 10% of lee speeds were built by LSA


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TH44
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Reged: 21/02/09
Posts: 734
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Re: LSA “Lee-Speed” sporting rifle [Re: Huvius]
      #377867 - 09/07/23 11:03 AM

The LeeSpeed patent expired in 1916, so anything post WW1 is theoretically not a "LeeSpeed"
But everything on the lovely rifle speaks "LeeSpeed", the action, (Lee Metford/Long Lee-Enfield), the single shot cut off (discontinued 1916 on military rifles), sights, early (pre 1910?? safety) 5 shot mag and magazine cover are all classic Lee speed, none of which appears in the later "sporterised Lee Enfields sold after WW1

The only explanation I can think of is a pre WW1 Lee Speed built earlier but finished/proofed after WW1

Certainly better all round than mine - a Westley Richards retailed early version with full length rib and tang safety

Good luck shooting it, you will have some fun

TH44


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RLR
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Reged: 02/06/23
Posts: 6
Loc: Washington
Re: LSA “Lee-Speed” sporting rifle [Re: TH44]
      #377869 - 09/07/23 02:40 PM

Thanks! I think the early action type was a staple of LSA factory sporting rifles right up until the doors closed in 1935. I don’t recall seeing a factory Sporter on any of the later actions, just converted military guns. The lack of any innovations eventually killed the company.

--------------------
“Don’t be noble, it’s ruining the country.” -The Old Man via Robert Ruark


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: LSA “Lee-Speed” sporting rifle [Re: RLR]
      #377870 - 09/07/23 04:15 PM

Very nice. A worthy acquisition. Now for a Tsavo lion.

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John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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Hunter4752001
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Reged: 25/01/10
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Loc: Australia
Re: LSA “Lee-Speed” sporting rifle [Re: NitroX]
      #377877 - 09/07/23 05:49 PM

On the subject of Tsavo, apart from the prop gun used for the film, has anyone seen evidence/photos that Lt Col Patterson used a "Lee Speed" (in either sporting or military configuration)? In his book, Patterson doesn't use the term "Lee Speed" he simply refers to his .303. Given the British Army at the time expected commissioned officers to purchase their own arms and accoutrements, I expect it would have been a Lee Speed. However I've always been curious?

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93x64mm
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Reged: 07/12/11
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Re: LSA “Lee-Speed” sporting rifle [Re: Hunter4752001]
      #377878 - 09/07/23 08:44 PM

Very nice piece of kit there RLR!
Hopefully one of our Lee- Speed gurus will come thru with a catalogue to show you the shape of the front sight cover - Bet Lancaster or Tinker could knock one of these up in no time!


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RLR
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Reged: 02/06/23
Posts: 6
Loc: Washington
Re: LSA “Lee-Speed” sporting rifle [Re: 93x64mm]
      #377908 - 11/07/23 12:42 PM

I think the topic of Patterson’s battery has been discussed many times, over many forums. Very few photographs exist, and at that, none are very clear for the weapons in them. The best theories that I’ve come across were that the .303, his .450 double, and the 12 bore shotgun were all Army & Navy examples purchased before his posting to India. Some theories have him purchasing the .450 after his Indian service though. In reality I don’t think there is anything definitive as to what he used. If the Army & Navy theory is true, a BSA made Lee-Speed Sporting rifle wouldn’t be out of the question. It is possible however that he used a more basic model than the movie depicts. Something along the lines of what W.D.M. Bell described his own .303 as being.

--------------------
“Don’t be noble, it’s ruining the country.” -The Old Man via Robert Ruark


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Huvius
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Re: LSA “Lee-Speed” sporting rifle [Re: RLR]
      #377915 - 12/07/23 01:38 AM

Considering that the events took place in 1898, his only mention of the rifle is that he called it a ".303" magazine rifle" and the only picture of his rifle I have seen is clearly a sporting Enfield of some sort, it must be a Lee Speed or sporterized Lee Metford perhaps.



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He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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Rule303
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Re: LSA “Lee-Speed” sporting rifle [Re: Huvius]
      #377923 - 12/07/23 08:22 AM

A good pick up there.
Just wondering if anybody has Ian Skennerton books on the Lee Enfield and if that would have anything on the Lee Speeds in then.


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Rowdy
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Reged: 12/09/04
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Loc: Victoria. Australia
Re: LSA “Lee-Speed” sporting rifle [Re: Rule303]
      #378174 - 30/07/23 08:36 PM

I would say definitely a prewar rifle and going by the lack of Lee Speed markings and the threaded brass rod fore end, post 1905 - so best guess 1910/12 or thereabouts.
Wait for better information from Jc5.


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jc5
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Re: LSA “Lee-Speed” sporting rifle [Re: Rowdy]
      #387980 - 01/12/24 06:54 AM

Gents,
Sorry to be away from the forum for so long! The Lee-Speed book is still progressing...

RLR, thank you for posting. This is a sweet rifle --I wish I owned it. I first saw this rifle #4573 back in 2008 when I was just starting my research and I didn't yet know the right questions to ask about it. Looks like it originally came from an attic in Canada and went through a couple owners since. Nice to see it again and glad it's in good hands. Did it come with a leather/canvas Parker Hale sling?

Let me take a stab at some statements in the thread and see if I can help.

First, Rowdy is correct (as he usually is about most things) about it being a pre-war rifle. London proofs didn't change much, so we need to find other ways to date an LSA rifle. First, it cannot be post war because the number of rifles that LSA made post-war was zero. More precisely, I have documented dates for two other LSA sporting rifles (#4536 and 4670) and they both date to 1909. LSA serial numbers are bit less wayward than BSA's, so we can be confident that your rifle fits snugly right between these other two. (It's worth noting that LSA used different number sequences for service pattern rifles--Long and Short--and for the trade carbines.)

Huvius wrote: ""The front sight on your rifle looks awfully Webley like to me the way it's shaped and sleeved onto the barrel." I agree. I have seen these front sights on Lee Speeds from Greener and Wilkinson too, not so much on those from BSA. Individual gunmakers often sought to distinguish their offerings in such ways.

Our friend superbee writes:" "Only about 10% of lee speeds were built by LSA" ... How do you calculate that? I'll be embarrassed if you say that I told you! I might have...but all my estimates of production figures are in a big folder covered in lunatic scribblings... I no longer keep the figures in my head. Ten percent sounds about right... but if you have some definitive source, I'll have to trade you a Lee-Speed for it.

TH44 writes: ""Certainly better all round than mine - a Westley Richards retailed early version with full length rib and tang safety"... I would love to see photos and learn the details about your WR Lee-Speed. Could you send me a PM? Every single surviving rifle provides valuable data.

On LSA... "The lack of any innovations eventually killed the company." The demise of LSA is a complicated story, and the post-war situation was dire economically. LSA never achieved comparable output with BSA because the size of the LSA works was very limited, with little opportunity to expand in Bow, London. Also, BSA's merger with Daimler really transformed it into a different company, and in 1919 it had to split into three companies, one of which was BSA Guns... which continued to make sporting Lee-Enfields. LSA was set up for government contacts and its ventures into commercial products were limited... the War Office Miniature was one and Lee-Speeds were the other. No air guns or bicycles for LSA! They did, also, offer a nice line of adjustable target sights for the civilian shooting market. The LSA Story is one still to be told and I will do my best, but as one approaches the year 1919, the surviving records become more scanty, disconnected, and hard to interpret.

Rule303 asks: ""Just wondering if anybody has Ian Skennerton books on the Lee Enfield and if that would have anything on the Lee Speeds in then." Yes, every Lee-Enfield owner should buy a copy of Skennerton's magnum opus (get the big 2007 edition). Get it before it goes out of print and then you end up paying 4x the price. You can still get now for under $100. A bargain for one of the best gun books ever written. It only contains a very small amount of info on Lee-Speeds, because that is not Ian's focus. But it is extremely valuable to understand where the Lee-Speed came from and why it is what it is. You can learn much about the patents too.

RLR... your profile says you are in Washington? I assume that is the state not DC! Are you a member of Washington Arms Collectors or Oregon Arms Collectors? There are a lot of knowledgeable Lee-Enfield guys in those groups. Latest issue of the OAC newsletter has a long review of Lee-Enfield literature, including Skennerton's.


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