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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Mannlicher Discussion forum & Archive

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DonZ
.300 member

Reged: 24/12/12
Posts: 120
Loc: BW

Keilernaedel
#376967 - 26/05/23 06:07 AM

Had fun today shooting for a German Keilernaedel with my M1910. I did have some rather old Kynoch ammo to play with. I'm assuming it was from the 1950s or later, as the box was clearly marked "rust free caps". I'm thinking that means non-corrosive primers.

In any case, all went well, except recoil was much more than the Dorfner rounds I was using earlier. I would have loved to have had my labradar with me, as I wonder if I was also picking up velocity to go with the added recoil. One thing I did notice as I got ready to load my last round: I noticed the previous round had a slightly split case. I then looked closely at the others, and noticed several. I thought it a little odd, as there were no other obvious signs of pressure: the primers were not "mushroomed", the base of the case was fine, etc. Just some minor splits. Not good at all, as I was hoping to save the brass for reloading.

I never fired that last round. No real reason to risk it. I'll pull the bullet, burn the powder, etc. Definitely not re-using that brass though.

Yes, I did get the needle!

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Waidmannsheil
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Reged: 19/04/13
Posts: 2443
Loc: Melbourne Australia

Re: Keilernaedel [Re: DonZ]
#376968 - 26/05/23 06:14 AM

You need to check your headspace, my own MS1910 was way excessive with factory ammo.

Seem like you had a good hunt.

Matt.

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NitroX
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Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39877
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...

Re: Keilernaedel [Re: DonZ]
#376972 - 26/05/23 11:25 AM

"Keilernaedel"?

I ask, what is this? Boar something?

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John aka NitroX

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DonZ
.300 member

Reged: 24/12/12
Posts: 120
Loc: BW

Re: Keilernaedel [Re: NitroX]
#376974 - 26/05/23 01:55 PM

Headspace is fine. Not ten minutes earlier it was firing Dorfner ammo perfectly well.

A Keilernaedel is a "qualification course" required for driven hunts. It shows you have trained to hit moving targets as well as fixed targets. A boar sized target at 50 meters moves at a little over 3 meters per second in a space about seven meters wide.

https://youtu.be/alf54Dm9R2U

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Waidmannsheil
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Reged: 19/04/13
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Loc: Melbourne Australia

Re: Keilernaedel [Re: DonZ]
#376975 - 26/05/23 02:03 PM

Have you checked the headspace or are you guessing. Remember Kynoch brass is thinner than most other brass cases.

Until you physically check it with packing tape you wont actually know it is.

Matt.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.

Edited by Waidmannsheil (26/05/23 02:04 PM)

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Rothhammer1
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Reged: 06/01/17
Posts: 1826
Loc: The Redwoods of California

Re: Keilernaedel [Re: Waidmannsheil]
#376976 - 26/05/23 04:58 PM

Here is a 2015 listing for M1910, Steyr (OWGS) serial number 835, for sale at Bonham's: Bonham's

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NitroX
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...

Re: Keilernaedel [Re: DonZ]
#376977 - 26/05/23 08:11 PM

Quote:

A Keilernaedel is a "qualification course" required for driven hunts. It shows you have trained to hit moving targets as well as fixed targets. A boar sized target at 50 meters moves at a little over 3 meters per second in a space about seven meters wide.

https://youtu.be/alf54Dm9R2U

Thank you.

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John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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85lc
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Reged: 19/01/18
Posts: 1031
Loc: Georgia, USA

Re: Keilernaedel [Re: NitroX]
#376987 - 27/05/23 01:07 AM

DonZ.
Thanks for the link to the YouTube video. I also didn't know what a Keilernaedel was. That is a very interesting course and would be fun to shoot. Too bad that tere are no running boar ranges near me.

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RB

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NitroX
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Re: Keilernaedel [Re: 85lc]
#376997 - 27/05/23 04:55 PM

It looks very similar to the Swedish running moose/alg test.

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eagle27
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Reged: 24/01/09
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Loc: Rolleston, Christchurch, New Z...

Re: Keilernaedel [Re: NitroX]
#377010 - 28/05/23 12:16 PM

Where on your cases were the splits. I have some Kynoch 404 Jeffery ammo dated around the early 60's and about 1 or 2 in every 5 rounds I fire suffer small splits in the case neck. I regularly anneal the neck and shoulders of cases that do not split when first fired and these don't give any further problems. I silver solder the neck splits on the defect cases and with regular annealing I haven't lost any of these repaired cases either.

I think the issue with Kynoch split cases is one of age, and possible poor annealing. Brass does harden with age, annealing fixes it.

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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3591
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia

Re: Keilernaedel [Re: eagle27]
#377028 - 29/05/23 01:00 PM

Yes, what Lindsay just said.
Very old brass ~50 years or more will often crack necks when fired.

The worst in my experience has been old Dominion .22 Savage High-power.

I too personally pull very old cartridges, anneal the necks/shoulders and reload, rather than risk it.
Sometimes they'll get neck cracks (splits!) just from pulling the bullets!

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eagle27
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Re: Keilernaedel [Re: Marrakai]
#377032 - 29/05/23 02:40 PM

Quote:

I too personally pull very old cartridges, anneal the necks/shoulders and reload, rather than risk it.
Sometimes they'll get neck cracks (splits!) just from pulling the bullets!

That's the very reason I haven't bothered to pull the bullets from my Kynoch 404 ammo as I did suspect that the case necks could still split as the bullet is mechanically pulled from the neck. I still have 4 packets of this Kynoch ammo which I won't fire, they'll go with the rifle when I sell it or could be sold individually to collectors. My split repairs work well on the cases that do split at the necks and give long life with cast bullet loads although I would be quite happy using these repaired cases for full power loads too.

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DonZ
.300 member

Reged: 24/12/12
Posts: 120
Loc: BW

Re: Keilernaedel [Re: eagle27]
#377048 - 30/05/23 05:46 AM

It is very similar to the Swedish test. The purpose is to demonstrate that you have trained for driven hunts. It is not an extremely difficult test, it just shows basic competence.

The cases were actually splitting near the base. I will try and take a photo when I get the chance.

Yes, I've checked the headspace. I checked it myself using the tape method, and had a smith check it when he adapted the base on a Viennese mount. Since then I have fired a grand total of 69 rounds through the rifle, so I don't think it is quite worn yet. I guess that's an assumption. How frequently do you recommend checking?

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Waidmannsheil
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Re: Keilernaedel [Re: DonZ]
#377050 - 30/05/23 06:08 AM

What was the headspace reading.

Matt.

--------------------
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eagle27
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Re: Keilernaedel [Re: DonZ]
#377058 - 30/05/23 09:07 AM

Quote:

It is very similar to the Swedish test. The purpose is to demonstrate that you have trained for driven hunts. It is not an extremely difficult test, it just shows basic competence.

The cases were actually splitting near the base. I will try and take a photo when I get the chance.

Yes, I've checked the headspace. I checked it myself using the tape method, and had a smith check it when he adapted the base on a Viennese mount. Since then I have fired a grand total of 69 rounds through the rifle, so I don't think it is quite worn yet. I guess that's an assumption. How frequently do you recommend checking?

Ah, when you said the bases were fine in your initial post I made the assumption that it was most likely the case necks splitting. Not much you can do about base or case wall splits. Certainly can't anneal cases in this area, or not supposed to according to the books. Would have thought you would get some gas blow by with splits in the base area?

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DonZ
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Reged: 24/12/12
Posts: 120
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Re: Keilernaedel [Re: eagle27]
#377074 - 31/05/23 04:23 AM

Yes, I guess it would have been more accurate to say the split was just above the web. When I say the base was fine, I meant no pressure signs: The primer was not flattened, there were no bolt face marks, etc. A friend was looking for an ejector mark, but I reminded him this is controlled round feed.

Here is what I learned today: I pulled the last bullet and am soaking the primer. When I pulled the bullet, what I learned was these cases were filled with cordite. Not sure if that has weakened the brass over time, or something else, but it does explain the difference in felt recoil compared to the Dorfner rounds.

As far as the headspace measurement, I'm not normally a fan of the "tape" method, but in this case, with (measured) .002 tape, One would close, two would close with some effort, and 3 would close only with great force. So call it somewhere around .004, give or take. That was with the unfired round. Using fired brass, I could get one more piece of tape in, possibly two (how does one actually measure the force of closing the bolt?).

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