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Lawman
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Reged: 04/01/07
Posts: 78
Loc: Texas, USA
1903 MS Takedown Magazine Adjustment?
      #376492 - 02/05/23 05:48 AM

With Factory Loads as well as Reloads loaded to correct Overall Length, Rounds cycle without a hitch in my 1903. But in my 1903 Takedown they hang up on a projection (cartridge guide) on the right side off the action interior. A slight dent is created at the junction of the shoulder and the body of the cartridge case. Once past the obstruction rounds feed smoothly.
It occurs to me that the mag spring in the Takedown may need adjusting for a bit more tension top raise the round in the magazine.
I have been unable to locate instructions on adjusting magazine spring tension.
Does anyone think I am in the right track?
Does anyone have instructions on adding tension to the magazine spring?
Photos attached to show dented case and a round loaded in the magazine.
Thanks in advance for aunt input.

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Waidmannsheil
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Re: 1903 MS Takedown Magazine Adjustment? [Re: Lawman]
      #376494 - 02/05/23 07:33 AM

Lawman, this exact issue came up a number of years ago with a chap from England having the same problem. At the time I had a Greek 1903 action which I was given and it too had the same problem although this one was so bad that it would not allow the cartridge to move forward at all. It has nothing to do with the pressure exerted by the spool but rather the shape of the projectile positioning protrusion that you have circled.
I then spent some time with a Dremel and removed just enough material to allow the cartridge to feed smoothly. From memory it also had to be radiused. After that it functioned flawlessly. The English chap then did the same and his worked as well without any problems.
If you send me a PM with your email address I can take some pics of my action for you so you can see the modification that is necessary.

Matt.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.

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Rothhammer1
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Reged: 06/01/17
Posts: 1826
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Re: 1903 MS Takedown Magazine Adjustment? [Re: Lawman]
      #376501 - 02/05/23 04:14 PM

Quote:

With Factory Loads as well as Reloads loaded to correct Overall Length, Rounds cycle without a hitch in my 1903. But in my 1903 Takedown they hang up on a projection (cartridge guide) on the right side off the action interior. A slight dent is created at the junction of the shoulder and the body of the cartridge case. Once past the obstruction rounds feed smoothly.



Build cartridges precisely like this including projectile profile and dimensions and they should feed with the renowned smoothness and reliability for which the MS has become legend:





--------------------
Citizen of the Cherokee Nation

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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3591
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: 1903 MS Takedown Magazine Adjustment? [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #376505 - 02/05/23 11:36 PM

I'm with Rothhammer on this.
A lot has been written over the years about the Schoenauer rotary magazine, especially the early pattern,
being quite fussy about feeding only the "correct" cartridges.
Looks to me like the original long round-nose bullet engaging the feed-ramp may well lift the case-shoulder
clear of the obstruction before damage occurs.
Not sure if anyone has experienced reliable feeding with lighter/shorter spitzer bullets in lieu of the normal
heavy round-nose projectiles.
If you haven't tried it already, I'd certainly recommend giving RNs a go before arcing-up the Dremel.
They're more "pukka" anyway!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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Lawman
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Reged: 04/01/07
Posts: 78
Loc: Texas, USA
Re: 1903 MS Takedown Magazine Adjustment? [Re: Marrakai]
      #376507 - 03/05/23 12:28 AM

The issue occurs with factory (S&B) Round Nose ammunition as well.
Even with Factory loads, a sharp bump with the heel of my hand is required to get past the obstruction, resulting a dent as in the photo.
I am trying to put together a load for my son to use in California so I loaded some Barnes 120 grain bullets.
Case was full length resized, no crimp.
Indicated in the photo I attached.
Both the Factory and the Mono Metal reloads cycle perfectly in my other MS 1903 Model.
I seriously doubt that the gun left the factory with this problem.
Curious.
Thanks for the input.

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Lawman
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Reged: 04/01/07
Posts: 78
Loc: Texas, USA
Re: 1903 MS Takedown Magazine Adjustment? [Re: Lawman]
      #376508 - 03/05/23 01:01 AM

One thing I had not done was to measure OAL of Factory Loads.
PPU 6x54mm MS 156 gr. are 2.960" OAL
The Barnes Loads are 2.964" OAL
My Hornady Handbook shows 2.970" as COAL.
I'll put together some loads at 3.06" and see if that works.

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DarylS
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Posts: 26992
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 1903 MS Takedown Magazine Adjustment? [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #376509 - 03/05/23 01:19 AM

Quote:


I then spent some time with a Dremel and removed just enough material to allow the cartridge to feed smoothly. From memory it also had to be radiused. After that it functioned flawlessly. The English chap then did the same and his worked as well without any problems.
If you send me a PM with your email address I can take some pics of my action for you so you can see the modification that is necessary.
Matt.



That would be my fix as well. The only solution I can see, is to reduce the protrusion's angle, bit by bit.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Lawman
.275 member


Reged: 04/01/07
Posts: 78
Loc: Texas, USA
Re: 1903 MS Takedown Magazine Adjustment? [Re: DarylS]
      #376511 - 03/05/23 01:35 AM

OK. I pulled a bullet from a PPU Factory Load and reseated it to 3.06"
Works as it should.
Barnes bullet at 3.06" hits obstruction.
It seems in this rifle (1903 Take Down) the difference between 3.060" and 2.960" is critical.
In the 1903 Stutzen the factory loads at 2.960" OAL feed perfectly.
Unless I can find a .264" round nose mono metal California is out of the picture.
Thanks all, for the help.

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Rothhammer1
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Reged: 06/01/17
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Re: 1903 MS Takedown Magazine Adjustment? [Re: Lawman]
      #376514 - 03/05/23 07:40 AM

Quote:

One thing I had not done was to measure OAL of Factory Loads.
PPU 6x54mm MS 156 gr. are 2.960" OAL
The Barnes Loads are 2.964" OAL
My Hornady Handbook shows 2.970" as COAL.
I'll put together some loads at 3.06" and see if that works.



Eley drawing shows 3.06"

I'd trust that over Hornady, you've got the right idea.

Conversely, if you do decide to alter the magazine, surplus 'Greek' 6'5X54 MS (Y1903, variants) can readily be found on the 'net and from Ebay, perhaps use one of those to experiment?

--------------------
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Lawman
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Reged: 04/01/07
Posts: 78
Loc: Texas, USA
Re: 1903 MS Takedown Magazine Adjustment? [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #376516 - 03/05/23 09:37 AM

The alteration would be inside the action.
That is why I hesitate to get out the Dremel Tool.
I would trust a good smith to do it.
If the magazine was to be altered I wouldn't be so wary.
Loaded some Barnes 120 gr. at 3.06" OAL an the hesitation is less but still problematic.
Evidently in my rifle, OAL + Shape of projectile contribute to the issue.
Waidmannshell is sending me photos of the alteration that has worked for him.
The saga continues...
Thanks

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Rothhammer1
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Re: 1903 MS Takedown Magazine Adjustment? [Re: Lawman]
      #376517 - 03/05/23 03:22 PM

Quote:

The alteration would be inside the action.
That is why I hesitate to get out the Dremel Tool.
I would trust a good smith to do it.
If the magazine was to be altered I wouldn't be so wary.




Got it. I read and answered in a bit of a rush before, was off to work.

Now that you've explained further, I see your dilemma. My own M1910 Take Down Model puts a very slight nick in the same spot on shoulder when loaded with Hornady 3715, which are _very_ close to the original profile of DWM531. I'll be watching your further posts on this with interest.

If My (formerly my grandfather's) TD were ever to require 'surgery' it would definitely be done by a master 'surgeon' whilst I would be pacing like an expectant father nearby.

As it is I'd like to find a qualified person or shop to recondition the Gerard 'B' scope without sending it off and waiting for months or wondering what happens during shipping.

I've toyed with the idea of purchasing a 'mini lathe' and crafting lead free MS projectiles.
Problem is that by California law they would have to be on their 'approved' list for any hunting use - whatever nuisance that would take to accomplish. Even without they could be properly fitting 'plinkers' or precision target rounds.

--------------------
Citizen of the Cherokee Nation

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Lawman
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Reged: 04/01/07
Posts: 78
Loc: Texas, USA
Re: 1903 MS Takedown Magazine Adjustment? [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #376521 - 03/05/23 11:15 PM

In stead of reinventing the wheel, I think I'll stick with the round nose projectile, in the Take
Down. The PPU Factory loads, after pulling the bullets and reseating to 3.06" feed as smooth as silk without the dent at the shoulder. Interesting that the difference between 2.960 and 3.060" has such a dramatic effect in one rifle and makes no difference in the other. I guess the manufacturing tolerances of 100 years ago are the explanation. They are fine rifles and their reputation for slick operation is well founded.

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Waidmannsheil
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Re: 1903 MS Takedown Magazine Adjustment? [Re: Lawman]
      #376533 - 04/05/23 07:55 AM

Lawman, good to see you have sorted it out with cartridge length, however I would argue that the protrusion is still not the ideal shape. The reason I say that that is because my own MS1903 Take Down shot and retailed by Beesley has a very different shaped protrusion than yours, and mine feeds all manner of bullets and shapes without a hiccup providing the cartridge length is not excessively short.

My MS19010 by Halliday has a similar shaped protrusion and feeds all manner of bullets quite happily. Maybe the British modified the actions for because of such an issue. Kynoch and Eley did after all also offer a lighter bullet, 140 grains or thereabouts at the same time as the 160 grain RNSN and this must have had a more pointed bullet. I have never seen one of those rounds but to maintain the same OAL the projectile would have to have been a more pointed shape.

My Greek 1903 action and the other chap from England ( His name is George AKA Deeangeo) whos gun was Austrian retailed from memory both had protrusions shaped like yours and neither would feed Norma brass with 160 RNSN projectiles of the correct OAL. Mine wouldn't feed at all until modified.

Now obviously plenty of guns did feed or else their popularity would not have been so high but some must have slipped through the net, mine being an example. And as pointed out before, the English guns seem to have a different shaped protrusion.

I have sent you an email with pics from my Beesley 1903 to show the difference, feel free to post them on this thread.

Matt.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.

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Waidmannsheil
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Posts: 2443
Loc: Melbourne Australia
Re: 1903 MS Takedown Magazine Adjustment? [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #376534 - 04/05/23 08:07 AM

Here is the link to the original thread where exactly the same problem occurred.


http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=266820&page=0&fpart=1&vc=1


Matt.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.

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Rothhammer1
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Reged: 06/01/17
Posts: 1826
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Re: 1903 MS Takedown Magazine Adjustment? [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #376544 - 05/05/23 04:32 AM

Quote:

Kynoch and Eley did after all also offer a lighter bullet, 140 grains or thereabouts at the same time as the 160 grain RNSN and this must have had a more pointed bullet. I have never seen one of those rounds but to maintain the same OAL the projectile would have to have been a more pointed shape.




Westley Richards, 1937:



--------------------
Citizen of the Cherokee Nation

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DarylS
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Re: 1903 MS Takedown Magazine Adjustment? [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #376549 - 05/05/23 08:34 AM

Pretty good ballistics for that little case.
2,800fps with 135gr.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Waidmannsheil
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Reged: 19/04/13
Posts: 2443
Loc: Melbourne Australia
Re: 1903 MS Takedown Magazine Adjustment? [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #376597 - 09/05/23 08:31 AM

Thanks for that pic Brian, I will have to check to see if I have that catalogue. The 135 grain is certainly a rather pointed bullet, which you would have to assume worked.

I had a close look at my Beesley 1903 and you can see that the cartidge lifting protrusion has been alerted after it was sent out by Steyr even though the rest of the rifle is untouched. One would have to assume it was modified because of the problems as discussed above.

Matt.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.

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Rothhammer1
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Reged: 06/01/17
Posts: 1826
Loc: The Redwoods of California
Re: 1903 MS Takedown Magazine Adjustment? [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #376599 - 09/05/23 07:00 PM

Quote:

The 135 grain is certainly a rather pointed bullet, which you would have to assume worked.





I've never owned / used an MS in 6.5X54 (M1900, Y1903, M1903), but on my 9.5X57 the critical area is the last third of the projectile. If there is excessive clearance / void between cartridge and magazine wall / spool in that area it will jam if more than three cartridges are loaded.


Image swiped from the 'net - may be a 9X56

This lists alternate projectile and powder charge for '6.7' (alternate designation for 6.5X54 MS) as well as '8.2' (8X56 MS):



Images of 6.5X54:







--------------------
Citizen of the Cherokee Nation

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Rothhammer1
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Reged: 06/01/17
Posts: 1826
Loc: The Redwoods of California
Re: 1903 MS Takedown Magazine Adjustment? [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #376614 - 10/05/23 08:37 AM

There's an Aussie offering some 6.5X54 'Super Simplex' dies on Ebay:

Neck Size Die 6.5X54

Seating Die 6.5X54

Stepped Expander Die 6.5X54

--------------------
Citizen of the Cherokee Nation

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