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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Muzzleloaders & Blackpowder
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lancaster
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goex powder cartridge data
      #376102 - 19/04/23 12:02 AM

https://goexpowder.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/cartridge-rifle.pdf

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Longknife
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Re: goex powder cartridge data [Re: lancaster]
      #376158 - 21/04/23 01:19 AM

Interesting...Thanx!

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Longknife

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Marrakai
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Re: goex powder cartridge data [Re: Longknife]
      #376166 - 21/04/23 07:48 AM

Yes, thanks Lancaster.
That link is definitely saved as a favorite!
It should be an interesting exercise comparing those loads/velocities with the old ICI/Eley/Kynoch data, such as in Appendix 3 of Wrightie's books.
...when I get time!

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Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
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85lc
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Re: goex powder cartridge data [Re: Marrakai]
      #376182 - 22/04/23 01:37 AM

Lancaster,

Thanks for sharing. I am surprised that they recommend FFF for 43 Mauer and 450 BPE. For the 500/450 #1, they recommend FFF for 270 gr bullet but F for the 310 gr bullet. I had always used FF for these cartridges.

I will try FFF in my 43 Mauser DR to see if I can get it to regulate better. It shoots wide (right barrel to right and left to left so needs more velocity. or less momentum.

--------------------
RB

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DarylSModerator
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Re: goex powder cartridge data [Re: 85lc]
      #376183 - 22/04/23 01:58 AM

Good chart, thanks lancaster.
I saved the PDF to a file in my "Guns" album.

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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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sharps4590
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Re: goex powder cartridge data [Re: DarylS]
      #376256 - 24/04/23 05:56 AM

85lc, I've had a German double in 11.15 X 60R for over 20 years. The only load I got to regulate in mine was a duplex load of 5 grs. of SR-4759 and.....I believe 68 grs. of Ffg either, Schuetzen or GOEX. I think Old Eyensford might regulate without duplexing but I haven't tried it. Swiss and the old GOEX Cartridge would not.

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Jesus said, "I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but through me." John14:6

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85lc
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Re: goex powder cartridge data [Re: sharps4590]
      #376260 - 24/04/23 09:57 AM

sharps4590,
Thanks for the input. It has been frustrating as it is a very nice rifle and should be a great hunting rifle.
Roy

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RB

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sharps4590
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Re: goex powder cartridge data [Re: 85lc]
      #376308 - 25/04/23 08:55 PM

Mine was certainly frustrating!!! Over 6 months of work, 3 bullet molds and countless powder combinations before reading Grahame Wrights book and trying a duplex load out of frustration and desperation. I blame, or credit, that rifle as where I earned my Phd. in handloading. It will hold between 2 1/2-3 inches, composite group, at 65 yards, open sights, standing bench rest.

Oh, the bullet I ended up using was Lyman's bullet for the 43 Mauser. I believe it weighs around 360 grs. from my mold and 25-1 alloy.

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Jesus said, "I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but through me." John14:6

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85lc
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Re: goex powder cartridge data [Re: sharps4590]
      #376313 - 26/04/23 12:08 AM

sharps4590,
One tyhing that is interesting about my Sauer DR in 43 Mauser is that it shoots a 0.439" bullet and not the 0.446" diameter bullet.
I have read about duplex loading but always have been leery about duplex loading, concerned about over pressure. However, I plan to put "toe" in the water to get mu Sauer shootingh right.

--------------------
RB

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sharps4590
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Re: goex powder cartridge data [Re: 85lc]
      #376354 - 26/04/23 09:06 PM

85lc, may I suggest Wright's book? He took several loads, duplex and straight BP, to both Kynoch and Birmingham Proof House and had them proofed. The pressure readings of the duplex loads were less than or equal to the BP pressures. Until I perused his results I too was leery of duplexing. 10% is Wrights recommended maximum for the smokeless kicker, IIRC and, I've been able to use as little as 5% with desired, satisfactory results. 7% has been the maximum I've needed to get the results I wanted. I've always looked for loads that would regulate and not pursuing high velocity.

--------------------
Jesus said, "I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but through me." John14:6

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85lc
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Re: goex powder cartridge data [Re: sharps4590]
      #376358 - 27/04/23 01:17 AM

sharps4590,

Thanks, I have Wright's book and have used it (along with Seyfried's articles) for NfB loads. I willl reread the duplex load section and proceed from there.

It was very nice hearing that you had the same problems as me with your 43 Mauser DR and solved them. My Sauer is a very nice rifle and it would be nice to successfully hunt with that rifle.

--------------------
RB

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sharps4590
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Re: goex powder cartridge data [Re: 85lc]
      #376370 - 27/04/23 09:51 PM

I don't know that I would ever have gotten my double to shooting without Wright's book. Mine is an old "E Goldmann in Erfurt" on the Lefaucheux action. It's a pretty decent rifle and was my first double so it isn't going anywhere. My bores are .446 and I finally bought a .447 die rather than continue using the .452....and the attendant lube leakage.

Several years ago in The Double Gun Journal, J.C. Munnell did an article on the 11.15 X 60R and found groove diameters all over the place. Some as big as .450 and I think some as tight as .430.

Good luck with yours, 85. It is a good cartridge and I've taken one doe with mine. I think the RCBS bullet would make a better hunting bullet but I never could get it to regulate in mine, whereas the Lyman came to its milk fairly quickly, once I duplexed the load.

--------------------
Jesus said, "I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but through me." John14:6

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85lc
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Re: goex powder cartridge data [Re: sharps4590]
      #376380 - 28/04/23 07:13 AM

Do you remember which issue of DGJ that JC's article was published? I would like to read that article (probably read it when it was issued but forgot).

BTW, JC is a super nice guy and provided some good info on 9x72 & 9x82 cartridges.

--------------------
RB

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DarylSModerator
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Re: goex powder cartridge data [Re: 85lc]
      #376381 - 28/04/23 07:41 AM

I read an article somewhere, about using IMR3031 as the duplex smokeless loading.
I tried that in my .50/70, 1859 barrel, lined and chambered in 1867 under contract with Sharps and the US Gvt. for the model 1868 Sharps rifle.
I put this barrel on my Italian cast 4140 action way back in the early 80's and tested it with straight and duplex loading.
With 10gr. of 3031 and 55gr. of 1F black powder, I achieved 3", 5-shot groups at 100 yards, along with the normal clean burning of the duplex load. IIRC, the best accuracy I got with straight black powder was 5 to 6".
The article's reasoning using IMR3031, was reduced pressure compared to using a faster smokeless powder like 4759, the then champion of duplex loading.
Too, using 3031 did everything the faster powders did, and shot just as well.
As a lower pressure smokeless, it's worth a try if that is a consideration. 10gr. was suggested for a 70gr. case. The .43 Mauser is a 77gr. capacity case, iirc.

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sharps4590
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Re: goex powder cartridge data [Re: DarylS]
      #376392 - 28/04/23 09:51 PM

Oh boy. No sir, 85, I do not. It's been a while ago is about the best I can answer. I have all issues from their last one back 19 or 20 years but I don't remember which one.

Daryl, I've never read of using anything other than faster burning powders for a duplex load. That doesn't mean anything other than I've never read or heard of it. Evidently it works well, if at a higher percentage of the load?

After getting off to a rough start in working up the load for my 11.15 X 60R I started chronographing every load. My experience with that rifle, and a later Reilly in 500 BPE, confirmed what Bell, Seyfried and others had frequently mentioned, with modern BP enough velocity to regulate could not be achieved. With the aforementioned Reilly I ended up duplexing it as well as having to paper patch bullets to accommodate the Henry rifling. That will be my last Henry rifled firearm, if my intended use is BP.

Oddly, a much later German, muzzleloading double rifle regulated with straight BP with the second load tried. That rifle was supposed to be a summer long project as I anticipated considerable difficulties in getting it to regulate. I got a bit of a smug feeling, thinking "I have this double rifle thing figured out." If I get another in my allotted time, I fully expect to be severely humbled.

Ah...I'm currently working with a drilling in 16 X 16 over 9.3 X 72R. IMR-3031 has given the best results so far. IIRC it is a 1924 proofed drilling. Jacketed bullets only in this one as the bore is slightly pitted.

Edited by sharps4590 (28/04/23 09:56 PM)

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DarylSModerator
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Re: goex powder cartridge data [Re: sharps4590]
      #376396 - 29/04/23 01:55 AM

Maroon Scotch-Brite can help with "slightly pitted" bores.
A square of it on a jag and WD40 for a light lube. About 40 strokes really does help.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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85lc
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Re: goex powder cartridge data [Re: DarylS]
      #376398 - 29/04/23 03:12 AM

For slightly pitted bores, I have lapped them using a expanding slug and fine valve grinding compound. It smooths out both the lands and grooves. It is time consuming but I believe offers better control than fire lapping. I did this on a schuetzen and was able to shoot 1/20 cast bullets very accuratey afterwards.

I first lightly oil the bore.

I put a chamber guide on a cleaning rod and then screw a 2" long all thread into the cleaning rod. I then wrap the rod below the all thread with a greased patch (greased cotton string will work). I put a nut on the all thread.

I insert the rod from chamber end into the bore to the all thread protrudes slightly from the muzzle and then and cast a slug around the all thread.

I push the slug out about 3/4 the way and butter it with fine valve grinding compound and slowly pull it in the bore for a couple of strokes. The chamber guide needs to be kept tight in place to keep the rod centered. The barrel is then turned horizontal in the vice.

After a few strokes, I push the plug out 3/4 way and rebutter it. When fully in the bore, retighten the nut to press tge slug outward.

I have screwed a second rod (with rod guide) onto the all thread at the muzzle. This allows all strokes to be pulling strokes. Pull from the chamber end until the slug is at the chamber and then pull from the muzzle end with 2nd rod.

I usually spend most of the time working all but the last 2" of the bore. This gives a slight choked bore.

Needless to say, this is somewhat time consuming but I have taken somewhat dark bores and make them shine with nice lands and grooves.

Now if the bore is deeply pitted, it is time for a rebore or relining or just use jacket bullets and hope for a small pattern.

--------------------
RB

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85lc
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Re: goex powder cartridge data [Re: 85lc]
      #376409 - 29/04/23 04:16 AM

Daryl,

Do you do a "equilivancy" reduction in black powder. Rereading Wright, I read he recommends a 3 to 1 reduction in BP for a fast burning powder like SR4759. I had also read that elsewhere (though don't remember where).

BTW, I believe that SR4759 has a similar by=urn rate as H110. Is that correct?

However, I note Wright's load for 500 BPE is 15 gr SR4759 & 110 gr 2F which seems like the equilivant load of 155 gr of 2F.

Your comment on 3031 makes sense. I just have never read about using a medium speed smokeless in a duplex load.

Daryl & sharps4590, thanks for the info.

--------------------
RB

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DarylSModerator
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Re: goex powder cartridge data [Re: 85lc]
      #376414 - 29/04/23 06:56 AM

SR4759 is a slighlty slower burning pistol powder than H110/W296, being just the slow side of the 4227's, H and IMR.
In actual rate, they are likely VERY close. In any chart, there has to be one listed before the others. I'm thinking in terms that those ball powders and the IMR 4227's and SR4759 are closer than "kissing cousins". Of course, burn rate is not all of it, energy per grain also comes into the equation.
In one chart I just perused, AA1680 is listed as one slot slower than SE4759 & from use in small rifle calibres, 1680 is just a tich slower than H110/W296.
IMR3031 is MUCH slower.
https://www.google.com/search?client=fir...2h3Y2hwEgQIBDAB

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sharps4590
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Re: goex powder cartridge data [Re: DarylS]
      #376427 - 29/04/23 09:11 PM

Daryl, I have been told previously about marron Scotch Brite....but we can't find the marron around here. I guess Amazon, huh?

85, that's clever, the way you lapped the bore.

With the drilling mentioned, at 50 yards, if I wait between shots, with the 3031 load and a 200 gr., .358 bullet, 3 shot groups are an inch or less....which surprised me but, I'll take it!!

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Jesus said, "I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but through me." John14:6

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DarylSModerator
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Re: goex powder cartridge data [Re: sharps4590]
      #376432 - 30/04/23 01:31 AM

Maroon - deep reddish/brown, I guess. I would suggest Harbor Freight, Lowes or other hardware stores.
The Grey ScotchBrite is finer, but the maroon has worked well for us now, on a few barrels that were harmed by using boiling hot water for cleaning.
Hint- cold water actually cleans better and doesn't "glaze" the fouling, but dissolves it.(hint from Holland and Holland, themselves - their word re: glazing the fouling)

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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85lc
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Re: goex powder cartridge data [Re: DarylS]
      #376436 - 30/04/23 02:04 AM

The rifle barrels in drillings are generally very accurate because teh two shotgun barrels help stabilize the rifle barrel, reducingh the impact of barrel harmonics. However, the walls of the rifle barrel is fairly thin and the barrel heats up quickly and is restrained by the cooler shotgun barrels, ruining accuracy after a few shots. Same thing happens with double rifles. With both, you have to wait for the barrels to cool to shoot accurately. There are hunting guns so that isn't a problem in hunting use.

--------------------
RB

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sharps4590
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Re: goex powder cartridge data [Re: 85lc]
      #376441 - 30/04/23 08:54 AM

That would echo my experience. With the drillings of typical configuration we get two cold barrels trying to keep a hot barrel from moving. With the several I've had generally there isn't much movement until the 3rd shot but, it isn't much, though continued shooting and they will walk quite a bit. How likely is it a fella will shoot 3 times at game with a single shot rifle? As you said, with hunting firearms it isn't a problem.

The only double rifle I have that moves much is that Erfurt in 11.15 X 60R and that's a function of a clean, cold bore vs a fouled by BP bore. There again, two shots and game and reload....a 3rd isn't likely. Fortunately, in 60 years of hunting, a 3rd has never been necessary....and rarely a 2nd. Now watch me have just jinxed myself.

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Jesus said, "I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but through me." John14:6

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