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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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CJF
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Re: Pre WW1 German double rifle retailed by Weisgerber [Re: CJF]
      #374915 - 07/03/23 02:00 PM

Axel -

Thank you for posting the pictures of the Triebel mounts. That was very helpful.

Do you have any insight into the steel hardness of the actual claws and locking surfaces? Were these relatively soft to limit battering or hardened to preserve geometry?

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kuduae
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Re: Pre WW1 German double rifle retailed by Weisgerber [Re: CJF]
      #374921 - 07/03/23 10:02 PM

Quote:

Do you have any insight into the steel hardness of the actual claws and locking surfaces? Were these relatively soft to limit battering or hardened to preserve geometry?


As I am no professionally trained gunsmith, I don’t know. That’s part of the gunsmithing art, but not always done “just right” even by professionals. I have seen errors and mistakes in both directions: Too soft leads to deformations and the mount will not hold zero. Too hard may lead to chipping and breaking under recoil or even on attaching the scope. Obviously it needs knowledge of the steel used and lots of experience.

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lancaster
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Re: Pre WW1 German double rifle retailed by Weisgerber [Re: CJF]
      #374953 - 08/03/23 04:40 PM

Quote:

First off, thank you all for sharing your expertise and kind feedback.

I've had a chance to cast the chambers and I've also received some S&B 9.3x72r loaded ammo. Rim size for the loaded ammo is perfect and the cast confirms a 72mm straight walled case. But the ammo doesn't fully seat, standing around of the barrel breaches by a small amount, roughly equal to the rim thickness. I will attach pics below showing this, along with measurements and where I think the cases might be hanging up.

Comparing measurements at the case head, the chamber is large enough for the S&B cases. But starting about 1/2" inch in, the chamber tolerance becomes very small. Starting 1.5" in, the chamber becomes straight walled to the case mouth. There is roughly 10mm of leade till the rifling starts, and that shows a 0.340" bore and lands at 0.358". No wear marks on the case towards the rim or the mouth...just in the mid section.

I didn't take a picture of it, the rifle very nearly closes on the loaded S&B rounds. I'm afraid to really snap the action closed to try to get these chambered but it's so close.

Unless there's a better idea, I will order brass and dies and try this with unloaded cases. If that doesn't work, then I guess it's either custom dies or have the chambers touched up with a the standard reamer. I'd prefer to avoid that if possible and let the next generation inherit this in the shape I found it.

Here are some pics:


Note below the left most measurement is the case head, not the rim, which as 0.492" on the cast.






before standardisation there were different versions of this cartridge with only minor differences what give endless complains from gunowner about ammo don't fit.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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85lc
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Re: Pre WW1 German double rifle retailed by Weisgerber [Re: lancaster]
      #374983 - 09/03/23 09:12 AM

here is a 9.3x70.

--------------------
RB

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85lc
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Re: Pre WW1 German double rifle retailed by Weisgerber [Re: 85lc]
      #374984 - 09/03/23 09:21 AM

Typo

Typo: FYI There is a 9.3x70 and a 9.0x70R.
If you pull a bullet, will the case seat? If so, what about a .358" bullet? That is what I shoot in my kipplauf.
















'




























;

--------------------
RB

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CJF
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Re: Pre WW1 German double rifle retailed by Weisgerber [Re: 85lc]
      #375142 - 15/03/23 09:16 AM

I'll pull a bullet and try an empty case

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CJF
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Re: Pre WW1 German double rifle retailed by Weisgerber [Re: CJF]
      #375618 - 27/03/23 11:15 AM

Tried an empty RWS case and a different brand of loaded ammo. No luck. Will try dies and seeing if I can’t size these slightly smaller. So close.

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85lc
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Re: Pre WW1 German double rifle retailed by Weisgerber [Re: CJF]
      #375621 - 27/03/23 01:43 PM

The cast vrs case diameter are very close and resizing may help.

In looking at your case vs case measurements, I don't see a linear measuarment. That is, how long is the case verses the chamber?

--------------------
RB

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3DogMike
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Re: Pre WW1 German double rifle retailed by Weisgerber [Re: 85lc]
      #375636 - 28/03/23 12:38 AM

I don't see where it is mentioned; try "smoking" the case then inserting to the point where it hangs up, give a twist, then withdraw. You will definitely then see the offending interference spot.
Some of the old chambers for the straight cases were not cut in a linear taper, but rather what I'll call a reverse bell shape. (cannot offhand remember the actual term for it) The base area is a bit bigger for 1/2'-1" then a squeezes to a slightly smaller straight taper thereafter.

If this is the situation then your choices then are 1) a custom set of sizing dies, 2) run a "modern" spec reamer into the chamber to adapt it, or 3) cobble together some other dies to squeeze the cases enough to easily fit, then fireform.

- Mike

--------------------
"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
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DarylS
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Re: Pre WW1 German double rifle retailed by Weisgerber [Re: 3DogMike]
      #375646 - 28/03/23 03:20 AM

Looks to me it is hanging up on the bullet's Ogive ahead of the case mouth.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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3DogMike
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Re: Pre WW1 German double rifle retailed by Weisgerber [Re: DarylS]
      #375649 - 28/03/23 08:34 AM

Quote:

Looks to me it is hanging up on the bullet's Ogive ahead of the case mouth.



CJF's latest post says he pulled a bullet and tried an empty RWS case.
Hoping he will smoke the case to get a better idea of what part is interference fit?
- Mike

--------------------
"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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85lc
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Re: Pre WW1 German double rifle retailed by Weisgerber [Re: DarylS]
      #375650 - 28/03/23 08:53 AM

Mike,

Great comment about smoking the case. That is what I normally do, using the blue machinest dye.

The problem with a modern reamer is that the rifle is bored for a 0.358" bullet and non-custom reamers are machined for a 0.366" bullet.

I believe that 9.3x72 brass can be trimmed to 70mm and then reformed to fit. reloading should not be aproblem with 9.3x72 dies. I say that only because I have a 9.0x70 that I reload with 9.3x72 dies using .359" cast bullets.

--------------------
RB

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CJF
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Re: Pre WW1 German double rifle retailed by Weisgerber [Re: 85lc]
      #375680 - 30/03/23 06:34 AM

Hi Roy & Mike -

I really appreciate you all trying to help me out.

When I compared the cast to new brass, length seemed identical. And the cast shows a long leade so I really think this is 72mm long.

When I had used a Sharpie to coat around the mouth of the brass and the side of the case from rim to mouth, there was none rubbed off around the mouth or on the bullet itself. I also tried a case without a bullet and that also hung up the same distance from fully seating...basically the thickness of the rim (which if flipped around, the rim perfectly fits the recess for it.)

If you look at the picture where I show the cast plus two loaded rounds above, you'll see the cast and the top loaded round are each marked at half inch increments from the base. I've recorded measurements at those hash marks that you can see in the picture.

The bottom of the two cases has a stripe of Sharpie ink on it from rim to mouth. That is worn away starting at 3/4" thru 1 1/2" from the rim. That's what's binding.

Here's what I plan to do next (unless someone stops me!)

1) order dies for 9.3x72r. (Buffalo Arms has them in stock right now)
2) polish the chambers with 320 or finer paper wrapped around a dowel, focusing on the first two inches, and make sure they are super clean (although I've already cleaned them) and then try another cast and smoking another case (empty this time using the RWS brass I've received (which currently hangs up just like the loaded S&B rounds)
3) if no luck with the above, I would think the next step might be to try resizing cases using the dies and a shim or two to squeeze down the trouble spot 0.75-1.50" ahead of the rim (or wrap that with tape?)

Lastly, if 1-3 do nothing, and the updated cast I make reconfirms the overall length of the cartridge, I'll see about renting a chamber reamer after confirming the pilot will fit. I would prefer not to alter the rifle and frankly this scares me so I'll probably ask help from a local smith. 4D rentals have them, although I forgot what pilot they had.

What do you think?

Chris

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85lc
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Re: Pre WW1 German double rifle retailed by Weisgerber [Re: CJF]
      #375694 - 31/03/23 01:00 AM

I have polished chambers using a case with primer vent drilled out and a #6 bolt inserted. The case is covered with polishing compound and spun. That is best done in a lathe but with care, can be done with care using an electric drill. However, using anything more aggressive than polishing compound could have negative results. I did that to eliminate some minor chamber roughness.

You might try running a lubed case thru a 357 die which has a head diameter of about 0.394" and then see if that seats. If it does seat in both chambers, I suggest doing with a second case & then fire form those cases, and load with 200 gr. 35 Rem bullets and see how they seat. If they seat well (they should), then your issue is resolved.

--------------------
RB

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DarylS
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Re: Pre WW1 German double rifle retailed by Weisgerber [Re: 3DogMike]
      #375698 - 31/03/23 03:50 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Looks to me it is hanging up on the bullet's Ogive ahead of the case mouth.



CJF's latest post says he pulled a bullet and tried an empty RWS case.
Hoping he will smoke the case to get a better idea of what part is interference fit?
- Mike



I was just going by the picture with the "rubbed" felt pen at the nose of the ogive on the bullet. However, the casting does not show a corresponding restriction. confusing.


--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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CJF
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Re: Pre WW1 German double rifle retailed by Weisgerber [Re: DarylS]
      #375703 - 31/03/23 06:06 AM

Daryl, I see what you're seeing on the bullet ogive. I believe that is due to where I stopped with the Sharpie, vs rubbing. I will repeat the exercise.

Thank you all for your advice and patience on this.

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CJF
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Re: Pre WW1 German double rifle retailed by Weisgerber [Re: DarylS]
      #375817 - 04/04/23 05:39 AM

Some progress to report and a question.

I'm on hold with my load development for the 500 BPE Woodward, and dies arrived for this rifle in 9.3x72r from Buffalo Arms, so I tried resizing a case. That by itself didn't help. Then I wrapped the case in a layer of Scotch tape where the Sharpie test showed it was rubbing. Applied Imperial Sizing Wax and ran it through the die, with the decapper removed. Cleaned that tape off and applied another band lower, closer to the rim.

And now it fits! My thought is to do this to 20 rounds, load and go see how it shoots. The question comes about the loaded ammo I have from S&B. Can rounds be detonated by trying this with tape drill with a loaded round? There's nothing contacting the primer and there has to be some space in the case for the powder to move. (I don't have a bullet puller, which is why I'm asking.)

Pictures show the resized with tape case fitting flush with the barrel face vs an untouched RWS case, plus the two cases outside the gun.

Taped & Sized case on left


Taped & Sized case on right

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CJF
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Re: Pre WW1 German double rifle retailed by Weisgerber [Re: CJF]
      #375818 - 04/04/23 05:46 AM

Compression measured in two different spots of 1/2" and 1" up from the rim were .009 vs case as received.

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DarylS
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Re: Pre WW1 German double rifle retailed by Weisgerber [Re: CJF]
      #375831 - 04/04/23 05:26 PM

Good work. You may never have to FL size(with tape), as you did, again.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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85lc
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Re: Pre WW1 German double rifle retailed by Weisgerber [Re: DarylS]
      #375842 - 05/04/23 12:07 AM

Chris,
That is very nice. While I don't believe there is a problem resizing the loaded rounds (it is minimum resizing), however, I think there is a concern with the S&B ammo. The bullets in your S&B ammo are 9.3 mm (0.366") whereas your rifle is more like a 9.1mm (0.358"). Kinetic bullet pullers are not expensive (compared to your rifle).

--------------------
RB

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DarylS
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Re: Pre WW1 German double rifle retailed by Weisgerber [Re: 85lc]
      #375849 - 05/04/23 01:30 AM

Your question:"Can rounds be detonated by trying this with tape drill with a loaded round?"

The answer is no. Are the bullets the correct size? Will one of those .966" bullets fit into a fired, un-sized case?

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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CJF
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Re: Pre WW1 German double rifle retailed by Weisgerber [Re: DarylS]
      #378184 - 31/07/23 01:53 AM

Finally got back to the range to test out two different loads for this rifle.

The first was 170gr LRN .358 bullets over IMR 4198. No happiness. Only 2 of the 4 rounds fired impacted the target at 50 yards.

Next tried 180gr jacketed hollow points over the same powder. Nice enough group with 2 shots from each barrel, with left and right barrels shooting to same horizontal point, but separated by vertical stringing of 3". Overall group was also 3" right of bullseye.

I'll retry with more 180gr JHP rounds, hopefully when it's not in the 90s like yesterday.

I am going to re-slug to confirm the 0.358" measurement I got last time. This sure would be easier if I could use factory ammo after resizing the cases using tape around the case up 1/3" from the rim. When I do this with loaded or empty cases, I'm able to get them to chamber. The problem with the smaller diameter (.358") vs normal (.366") is that my CH4D dies open the necks up for the larger bullets. So the smaller ones risk falling inside the case as I'm crimping. That happened often until I started running the cases into a 357 Maximum die to compress the neck.

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85lc
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Re: Pre WW1 German double rifle retailed by Weisgerber [Re: CJF]
      #378192 - 31/07/23 02:53 AM

Chris,

Welcome to the frustrations of shooting a vintage rifle. I have had that experience several times until you hit the right combination.

To shoot best, a hard cast bullet needs to be 0.001" over but from even if slightly undersized, shouldn't miss the target. For those that hit, were they head on, ie, could you detect a wobble by a not completely circular hole?

FYI: I usually initially shoot from 25 yds and, for a double rifle, shoot unsupported because I get bad groups if shooting from a rest.

From what I have read, a number of the "9.3x72R" were actually 9.09mm or 9.1mm. That is, they are bored for a bullet with a diameter between 0.355" to 0.359".

I corresponded with one of the DGJ writers who advised that a number of his guns were actually .35 caliber; that is, 9.09x72r.

Perhaps Axel can elaborate.

There is an article in Rife that discusss a buchsflinte won in auction that turned out to be a 9.1x72r.

Thanks for reporting and best success next time.

--------------------
RB

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CJF
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Re: Pre WW1 German double rifle retailed by Weisgerber [Re: 85lc]
      #378198 - 31/07/23 04:31 AM

Thank you Roy. To be honest, I think the jacketed load has merit and could work hunting, particularly if I drift the rear site. I'd prefer to confirm the bullet size and then order heavier projectiles more like this was originally proofed for before I mess with the rear site, which is staked.

I'll see about a digital copy of Rifle. That was one of my favorite magazines as it wasn't all new plastic stuff or the latest/greatest thumper.

Regards,
Chris

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85lc
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Re: Pre WW1 German double rifle retailed by Weisgerber [Re: CJF]
      #378206 - 31/07/23 07:25 AM

Chris,

That makes sense about getting a good working load before adjusting sights.

One of the bullets that you might want to consider is the 200 gr for the 35 Remington. It is fairly close in weight to the standard 196 gr bullet for the 9.3x72R

Also I believe it is a fairly soft bullet; ie, not a high velocity bullet. BTW, Graf's has some in stock.

Best success.

--------------------
RB

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