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MauserRifle
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Reged: 15/03/05
Posts: 153
Loc: U.S.A.
Re: Which DR cartridge for YOU! [Re: mickey]
      #37432 - 14/09/05 11:37 AM

mickey

I realize that building such a listing would be very difficult, but wouldn't many of these DR's fit into the same catagory? Woulddn't the quality, craftsmanship and price range be close?

What do you know about the DR's I listed above?

What English DR's do you think are the best buy for the money?

One thing seems to be true for sure, the prices are rising everyday on DR's. The demand for DR's is defenately exceeding the supply!



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Mauser Rifle

Everyday is a great day, some days are just better than others!

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Which DR cartridge for YOU! [Re: MauserRifle]
      #37434 - 14/09/05 11:44 AM

MauserRifle,

There is a parameter here that has only been hinted so far. Double rifles, as other fine double guns, are the canvas for some of the most skilled artwork known.

When I mentioned the Merkel Mod. 140-2 I told you to forego the engraving. The engraving on the 140-2.1 is no better than the Sunday cartoons. Proper engraving cannot be had for $1,000. It will cost ten to fifty times that much.

Thus, a Holland & Holland can vary in cost from somewhere around $90k to $200k. The difference is the art. Essentially the functions, features, fit and finish are equivalent. The engraver charged the difference.

So what you are asking is essentially impossible. You have asked this forum to rank double rifles as though they are standard commodities. They are not, once you go beyond entry level. Sure, we can rank the entry level rifles, and you can find many debates on that topic which have already been posted to the forum. Merkel, Chapuis, Heym, Blaser, Krieghoff, Searcy. These entry level rifles have charged some of the more heated discussions in the past.

There is also a difference between a "vintage" rifle and a "modern" rifle. I may not be articulate enough to put to words what exactly that difference is, but if you hold it in your hand, you can feel it tingle your spine. Frankly, a new H&H Royal doesn't make your spine tingle like one made before WWI. Here's a pic of a Purdey hammerless DR made for .450/400 3.25" BPE:

Purdey .450/400 BPE

Just look at the fit and finish. Look at the precise detail how the action was filed and beaded. Look at the fine English scroll engraving. Look at the lines of the stock, and how those lines blend to the metal. That rifle is a masterpiece. I know nothing about that rifle but what is represented on this web page, but I can guarantee you that if you shoulder that rifle you will feel the tingle in your spine. No, it's not a big belching elephant gun, but think of what that old 19th century Purdey can do in the deer woods!

I'm sorry, man, but what you want can't be done. Nobody on earth can rank art. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. At least I heard that somewhere. Rest assured that beauty will hit you in the pocketbook. But what would you pay for an irreplaceable masterpiece? What will that masterpiece be worth in another generation?

They will never make another rifle like that 100 year old Purdey or its ilk. Bank on it.

Regards,
Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Which DR cartridge for YOU! [Re: MauserRifle]
      #37435 - 14/09/05 11:49 AM

P.S. MauserRifle,

You are on a really slippery slope. DR's will steal your mind and your gold! Watch out!

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Which DR cartridge for YOU! [Re: 500Nitro]
      #37438 - 14/09/05 12:05 PM

500Nitro,

I am interested in your comment about 25% appreciation in DR's this past year.

I constantly watch what comes to market on the internet and in the Gun List. In my observation double rifles have moved rather quickly this past year.

Several websites bear me out. Westley Richards and Cabelas seem to move everything they can get their hands on. Overall, there are fewer DR's listed now than a year ago, indicating to me that they are being snapped up. Champlin's still has quite a few, but in my observation they ask top dollar. Still, they have moved quite a number also. Gun List is almost devoid of DR's.

I wonder if other market watchers have the same impression as I. Please speak up with opinions.

Maybe it's time to sell? So why am I buying and holding???

Curl

--------------------
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YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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CptCurlAdministrator
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Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 5284
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Re: Which DR cartridge for YOU! [Re: MauserRifle]
      #37439 - 14/09/05 12:09 PM

MauserRifle,

My final post on this thread for now. Sorry to be so disjointed.

I strongly recommend that you go back and read all the posts on this forum since its inception. There is a wealth of information to be gleaned. There are posts from very knowledgable members who no longer post. Many questions appear over and over. They generally get answered fully the first time, then just "luke warm" the second, third, forth, etc. times. Read the past, and you will learn a lot.

Regards,
Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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mickey
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Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
Re: Which DR cartridge for YOU! [Re: CptCurl]
      #37450 - 14/09/05 01:16 PM

In reply to:

Many questions appear over and over. They generally get answered fully the first time, then just "luke warm" the second, third, forth, etc. times.



I made almost the same comment a few days ago to a PM from somone. 3-4 years ago I would answer a question or relate an incident in the upmost detail possible, for me. After reading the same question over and over again I find myself not even answering the posts at all sometimes.

Norma Cases for the 9.3x74R and wadding are two examples that come to mind. This in no way reflects on the questioner, he wasn't around then, more on me I quess.



You could put together a list of makers but it would read more like this.


New Used.



Sidelocks

Boxlocks

English

European

midlevel.

Entry level

I don't know that H&H is a better rifle than a Watson Bros. Chances are you couldn't tell them apart without reading the name sometimes.

Look for:

Action Type, Quality of Engraving. (poor engraving is far worse than no engraving) fit and finish. Bores and Chambers. Regulation (shoot it yourself) Name. (just because you have never heard of it does not make it a bad gun) Price

Remember a $12000 new rifle will never be worth what a $12000 used rifle will be worth.

About the only diffrence between a mid level and a entry level is the fit and finish. Most of the Entry level rifles, and one in particular look to me as if they weren't finished before being shipped out the door.






--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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MauserRifle
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Reged: 15/03/05
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Re: Which DR cartridge for YOU! [Re: mickey]
      #37461 - 14/09/05 03:41 PM

Mickey

First, let me say that I really appreciate all the information that has been posted by everyone, especially You, CptCur and 500Nitro. The last several posts by the three of you has been especially helpful.

As I have stated, I am not an expert on DR's., but they seem to fall into the same catagory as Mauser rifles. I believe that the pre-war mausers are far superior to the current run of the mill rifles being turned out today. I have always liked the lines, ballance and feel of the pre-war rifles. I also believe that the hand craftmanship was far superior on pre-war rifles. Even with all the modern technology and metallurgy we have today, the rifles being produced do not have the esthetics, balance, beauty and are not as functional as the pre-war Mausers. If todays rifles are stronger built, one couldn't prove it by me as I have never had a pre-war Mauser fail!

From what has been posted and what I have read and seen, the same holds true for DR's. There are many old DR's still out there doing the job after 50 to 100 years of service.

Mickey, I like your break down for DR's in you last post. I was trying to say something similar in the post I made on your topic a couple of days ago and in the posts I made here earlier. I just wasn't expressing it correctly.

I fully understand what CptCurl, 500Nitro and you are stating concerning entry level DR's, engraving and name brands. I believe most people understand the difference in entry level, mid-level and high grade DR's. The confusion is with the different types of actions. IMO, the majority of first time DR buyers will probably purchase an entry level or slightly better DR. Many of these buyers are confused and concerned as to which make and action type to purchase. To site an example, I am un-familiar with the CLAM SHELL ACTION, seeing the first one ever this week!

If I have angered anyone, I am sorry. But I do like your break down for DR's Mickey, and I appreciate all the information that has been posted.

Thank You



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Mauser Rifle

Everyday is a great day, some days are just better than others!

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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Which DR cartridge for YOU! [Re: CptCurl]
      #37465 - 14/09/05 04:05 PM


CptCurl,

Firstly, a group of us in different countries all collect different things / makes
etc etc - you know what I mean.

As a result we all keep an eye out worldwide for guns for each other. When we find
them the person in each country does the checking and then the person decides if he
is to buy it and so on. ie If I want a gun looked at in the US it gets sent on your 3 day
inspection period to my mate in California - he gives me a run down, checks it's all OK
and I buy it.

About 2 - 3 years ago everything went quiet - guns weren't moving and it seemed
those who wanted a DR had one. I think 9/11 was partly to blame.

This was when I jumped into the market in the US and picked up a cased Holland Royal for
peanuts, a cased Jeffrey DR in 333 Jeffrey in great nick (which I had missed out on by being too
slow the first time and ended up paying $3000 more for it 12 months later) and a Jeffrey 333 Bolt Action.

Then about a year ago things started to move - you may remember that Mickey and
I had a discussion on the forum about 3 months go about the lack of guns around.
I think demand started to outstrip supply again.

Well I noticed a gun by a particular maker on a US web site today so emailed my mate
in the US. He came back and said he thought the price for a similar gun was US$1000
less 12 months ago - which I agreed with.

Anyway, he came back in his reply saying - and I quote -
" It seems like ALL nice guns are going for at least 25% more than a year ago.
Concern about our dollar ?"

This just confirms in my mind what feedback I have been getting from friends,
dealers in the US etc that I talk to.

I have also been told that anything in 500NE and above (500NE, 577NE, 600NE)
dissapears quick smart.

It is also why I say to people on the forum to get in an buy and stop
waiting for that "bargain" to come along. While they wait for the bargain
the price goes up.

A good example is that Army and Navy 450/400 3 1/4" which SafariTom
posted about. Not long ago (2 - 4 years) you couldn't give a 450/400 away
but now the good ones are getting up to US$18 - 22K.

IMHO, good English guns appreciate at a minimum 10% a year.

Re "Maybe it's time to sell?
Maybe the same for me also. I have 4 x 500 Nitro double rifles
and I only want to keep 2 so maybe it's time to move them on
while demand for 500+ cartridges is high.

RE "So why am I buying and holding???"
Because if you don't need the money, English guns appreciate at a
faster rate than you get if the money sat in a bank account !!!!!

So that is my thoughts on the subject. Better get back to my
"Annual Spring cull" of guns that I am not using anymore.

500 Nitro

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500Nitro
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Posts: 7244
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Re: Which DR cartridge for YOU! [Re: MauserRifle]
      #37467 - 14/09/05 04:16 PM

MauserRifle

I think I may know of that Rigby you were taking about - in any case,
I am afraid I have to be critical of you here.

You DIDN'T know what you were thinking of AND you
DEFINATELY WERE sitting around playing with myself.

Don't worry - if you read my other post I missed a 333 Jeff by
being too slow and luckily maaged to buy it for US$3k more
later on. I would say that the gun has increased 30%+ in value
since I bought it 2 years ago.

We all make misakes - just try not to do it twice !!!

2 things people seem to forget.
1. They don't make any more Old English pre WW11 Doubles
so demand will always outstrip supply.
2. I still see people comparing prices of a 470 / 500 Merkel / Chapuis
to an English double !!! They want an English double but always say
it's too much and end up buying nothing. The Merkel / Chapuis depreciates
while the English 470 / 500 appreciates.

Anyway, just my HO.

500 Nitro

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MauserRifle
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Reged: 15/03/05
Posts: 153
Loc: U.S.A.
Re: Which DR cartridge for YOU! [Re: 500Nitro]
      #37469 - 14/09/05 04:48 PM

500Nitro

Not to worry about being critical, I am my own worst critic. I view it as a lesson learned and water under the bridge. Like you said, as long as one learns and dosn't make the same mistake twice.

Certain property is on the same course as fine guns. I am not sure how long it will last, I can not see this rate of inflation continuing forever? But what do I know?

As I stated earlier, I want to thank you and everyone else for all the information that has been posted.

Thank You



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Mauser Rifle

Everyday is a great day, some days are just better than others!

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Posts: 5284
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Re: Which DR cartridge for YOU! [Re: 500Nitro]
      #37481 - 14/09/05 09:45 PM

500Nitro,

I agree with your comments.

It sounds like you have quite a network of collectors/buyers around the world. That's a great system if it works. What about internal competition? If you see fit to include me in this network at some point, I would be interested.

I don't recall the 450/400 you mentioned in regard to SafariTom, and I don't see a user by that moniker on the user list. Could that have been another forum? A lot of users also post on AR, but I really haven't warmed up to that forum. Too widespread. Not focused on DR's. In my opinion the hard core DR enthuiasists would do well to stick to NitroExpress because of its focus on DR's. That would improve the traffic on this forum and improve the discussion of DR's in general.

There are exceptions to your observation of .500+ being real sellers. Cabelas still has that Westley Richards .500NE it's been hawking for quite some time. I suppose it's just too high at $46k. That's what I thought when I first saw it. You might remember that I launched a post to compare that rifle to a David McKay Brown .470 that was on the Westley Richards website. The DMB is long gone, and the Westley remains.

Two other .500+ rifles that are lingering are the Francotte .577NE on Champlin's and the H&H .577NE on Roosevelt & Drake. The H&H was recently reduced from $135k to $95k. The Champlin site is down this morning, but the Francotte was still there the last time I looked. It's priced mid $40k. In my eye that Francotte is a real sleeper, but probably too high priced (it's hard to say in that caliber, though). It's an SLE with only scant engraving. I have not seen the rifle, only the website pictures.

I'll be interested to see what is offered at the Vintagers next week.

Regards,
Curl


--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Which DR cartridge for YOU! [Re: CptCurl]
      #37498 - 15/09/05 03:34 AM


CptCurl

See your PM.

Re What about internal competition?
Their isn't any - we all collect different things and if one person collects
XYZ Maker, then the unwritten rule is that you stay away from that maker.

I'll give you another example - the same applies at Auctions where you know everyone
else - or at least most people who may be in the room.
We all ask around and say you really want Item ABC and would they mind not bidding.
Unless you really want it, your sometimes better backing off.

"I don't recall the 450/400 you mentioned in regard to SafariTom"
It wasSAFARIKID, apologise. It was mentioned with an Army Navy 577.

Check out Champlins now - they have an Alex Martin for $28500 and have updated
the complete list. Interesting reading.

Re the other guns "still around", yes, overpriced guns do tend to hang around
and all the ones in that category IMHO tend to be in that category.

Good luck at the Vintagers next week.

500 Nitro

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