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AvidFlyer
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Reged: 12/12/22
Posts: 6
Loc: Idaho USA

Joh Springer double rifle questions
#372340 - 16/12/22 03:20 AM

I have a JOH springer rifle serial # 1899 in what I believe to be 11.5 x 65 from my research I believe it was made after 1888 due to Johan marrying the sister of the gunsmith and after that happened it changed the markings on the barrel. I contacted the factory and they have lost all records prior to World War II. I asked them to look in the museum to see if they could learn anything. I cast the chamber and that is how I determined the length for a cartridge it is marked 11.5 under each barrel I have seen the obsolete round 11.5 x 65R from my measurements I’m thinking that’s what it is l. does anyone know where I could get that obsolete brass I went to Buffalo arms and went through all of their brass and couldn’t find anything to make it from I would like to do light to moderate smokeless loads. I have read that you can start with powder slower than 2400 and work from 40% of the black powder charge. I am a careful Reloader with over 35 years experience in precision and long range competition as well as pistol competition. the inside of the barrels are excellent on the outside of the barrels there is some pitting so I have a little bit of concern. The gun locks up as tight as anything I have ever closed so there is nowhere that I have found. I would like everyone’s opinion I have a friend who has been a lifelong Gunsmith who’s going to look at it and give me his determination the owner of Buffalo arms thought it looked OK but said I should get it checked out so that is my plan. I looked at CH4D’s website and did not find any dies for this cartridge if indeed that is the correct cartridge if anyone knows of a source of dies that would be great. again any and all information will be greatly appreciated. After doing some more research it looks like I can make the brass from 450 nitro express thick rim unfortunately I’m not able to find that anywhere Buffalo arms does not know when they will get more in

Thanks

james

https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/v495/BACKFIXER/A1116D49-EDB3-4F8E-A7AF-05597EE8472F.jpeg

https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/v495/BACKFIXER/354067AB-6A67-4CE6-85E6-0CC6EBFE24ED.jpeg

https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/v495/BACKFIXER/IMG_1617.MOV

https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/v495/BACKFIXER/2274EBED-654F-4464-87CC-7AD276E045DA.jpeg

https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/v495/BACKFIXER/E2306510-49F4-4DBA-B6D6-22F67C4B09F4.jpeg

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https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/v495/BACKFIXER/200676D7-F2DE-4EB2-B23A-3EE06E21ABD4.jpeg

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Edited by AvidFlyer (16/12/22 05:22 AM)

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DarylS
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Re: Joh Springer double rifle questions [Re: AvidFlyer]
#372344 - 16/12/22 05:57 AM

Interesting gun with lots of photos, but no bore shots.
What are the bores & sights like?
11.5mm makes me think maybe a bore size, not a groove diameter, or was .4528" (11.5mm) a common Euro calibre, back then?

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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3DogMike
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Re: Joh Springer double rifle questions [Re: DarylS]
#372348 - 16/12/22 06:35 AM

Avid, welcome to Nitro Express Forums!

A few thoughts:
1) Straight case? It could be an 11.6x65R OR an 11.6x63R
http://www.cartridgecollector.net/tags/european-sporting-11mm-upwards?page=2
Best to slug the bore and check the twist rate as well because the "11.5" (.4527") may well be the proof mark that would have been "bore" diameter NOT "groove" diameter and not what calibre ammunition.
You may already know this, but plenty of the old black powder rifles/ammunition used somewhat undersized bullets that "bumped up" to the grooves with black powder. A purely groove diameter bullet may not fit in the case.

2) 65mm is 2.56" so "if" the case head and rim thickness is the correct size you don't need to obsess about .450 NE "thick rim" brass. Just find .450/.400 3" Jeffery, it's the "thick rim" and you can trim it to length. You still need to be very sure of the depth of the actual rim seat on the rifle tho. May require thinning the .450 "thick rim" (~.065") a bit.

3) Be very careful of your interpretation of "….powder slower than 2400 and work from 40% of the black powder charge…."
Not so simple. That 40% really ONLY applies to H4198. Yes, other powders can work but likely not at a simple % ratio. Plus you "may" have to use a case filler like dacron or foam backer rod and magnum primers to achieve reliable ignition.

4) I'd suggest that your gunsmith can probably look at the rifle and give his blessing that it is safe to shoot…..but…..that does not mean that said gunsmith is familiar enough with loading and shooting antique black powder rifles to blindly accept any further advise as to loading practice with "Nitro for Black".

There is a fair amount of published material to do with smokeless in black powder cartridges, I'd suggest searching them out and getting familiar with the issues before proceeding.
As this is a double rifle you may be limited in choice of bullet weights, grease groove, paper patch, etc.
If a ~.45 caliber I would opine that it "likely" will only regulate with somewhat lighter bullets, on the order of 300 maybe up to 350 grains.
I'd start with 325 to 350 grain bullets sized to groove diameter for any smokeless load.

Stick solely to cast bullets…..

- Mike

--------------------
"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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3DogMike
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Reged: 29/01/15
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Re: Joh Springer double rifle questions [Re: DarylS]
#372349 - 16/12/22 06:37 AM

Quote:

Interesting gun with lots of photos, but no bore shots.
What are the bores & sights like?
11.5mm makes me think maybe a bore size, not a groove diameter, or was .4528" (11.5mm) a common Euro calibre, back then?

Perhaps one of the Euro/German members will chime in?

Add another source:
https://naboje.org/en/node/4254

Sorting thru the closely relevant 11.6 cartridges the bullet weights are variously 20.4-21.5 grams which is 313-331 grains

--------------------
"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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85lc
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Re: Joh Springer double rifle questions [Re: 3DogMike]
#372350 - 16/12/22 07:32 AM

James, That is a very nice looking rifle. It looks like you have done a chamber cast to determine the possible caliber. Looking at COTW, there may be several different base cartridges that you can use to make your brass.

As usually, Mike hit the points that you should consider.

I usually do a chamber cast that includes the 1st : of the bore so I know what size bullet to use. As Mike said. you should slug the bore to determine twist rate. If the bore is uniform (you should be able to tell by the poressure it takes to push the slug thru), you can use the slug for bullet diameter.

For base brass, I first check head diameter, rim thickness, and case length because tose are most important to me. Of copurse, if necessary, base thickness can be cut down using a small lathe provided you don't thin the web and rim thickness can be thinned with a lathe or thickened by two methods.

Provided that the base, rim thickness, and length match, the case body can be sized down with various dies and then fireformed. Or at least, that is what I do.

Some of the black powder cases used fairly light (for caliber) bullets. The 450 BPE used a 270 gr bullet. The 10.75x65R Collath used a 250 gr bullet. However, twist rate should tell you what the builde intended to use, weight wise.

FYI: While not the same caliber, I have a Collath double rifle drilling in 10.75x65R x 10.75x65R x 32 ga. A chamber cast showed that the case was not the same as the commercial 10.75x65R so I used some other cases fireformed to 10 gr Bullseye. I only neck size with 44 mag dies.

Best success

--------------------
RB

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AvidFlyer
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Reged: 12/12/22
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Re: Joh Springer double rifle questions [Re: DarylS]
#372358 - 16/12/22 12:38 PM

Quote:

Interesting gun with lots of photos, but no bore shots.
What are the bores & sights like?
11.5mm makes me think maybe a bore size, not a groove diameter, or was .4528" (11.5mm) a common Euro calibre, back then?

The bores are excellent. The normal rear sight is marked 1-150 the fold up rear leaf is marked 200

I do not know what was common back then. I am enclosing some measurements from the cerosafe cast I took. Thanks for your thoughts

James

https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/v495/BACKFIXER/1FBFBC07-9006-48DA-B1A2-808676AA7ACB.jpeg?
width=320&height=320&fit=bounds

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AvidFlyer
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Re: Joh Springer double rifle questions [Re: 3DogMike]
#372359 - 16/12/22 12:53 PM

Mike Thank you for your time and thoughts.

I added some more pictures of my chamber casting. It looks to me like I could use a standard .458 cast bullet. I agree from my reading as well that a 300-350gr bullet would be closest to correct. I was not aware that a standard bullet might not fit the case.

I have a couple lathes so if I have to thin the rim I am able to do that.

Thank you again for your time and knowledge

James

Quote:

Avid, welcome to Nitro Express Forums!

A few thoughts:
1) Straight case? It could be an 11.6x65R OR an 11.6x63R
http://www.cartridgecollector.net/tags/european-sporting-11mm-upwards?page=2
Best to slug the bore and check the twist rate as well because the "11.5" (.4527") may well be the proof mark that would have been "bore" diameter NOT "groove" diameter and not what calibre ammunition.
You may already know this, but plenty of the old black powder rifles/ammunition used somewhat undersized bullets that "bumped up" to the grooves with black powder. A purely groove diameter bullet may not fit in the case.

2) 65mm is 2.56" so "if" the case head and rim thickness is the correct size you don't need to obsess about .450 NE "thick rim" brass. Just find .450/.400 3" Jeffery, it's the "thick rim" and you can trim it to length. You still need to be very sure of the depth of the actual rim seat on the rifle tho. May require thinning the .450 "thick rim" (~.065") a bit.

3) Be very careful of your interpretation of "….powder slower than 2400 and work from 40% of the black powder charge…."
Not so simple. That 40% really ONLY applies to H4198. Yes, other powders can work but likely not at a simple % ratio. Plus you "may" have to use a case filler like dacron or foam backer rod and magnum primers to achieve reliable ignition.

4) I'd suggest that your gunsmith can probably look at the rifle and give his blessing that it is safe to shoot…..but…..that does not mean that said gunsmith is familiar enough with loading and shooting antique black powder rifles to blindly accept any further advise as to loading practice with "Nitro for Black".

There is a fair amount of published material to do with smokeless in black powder cartridges, I'd suggest searching them out and getting familiar with the issues before proceeding.
As this is a double rifle you may be limited in choice of bullet weights, grease groove, paper patch, etc.
If a ~.45 caliber I would opine that it "likely" will only regulate with somewhat lighter bullets, on the order of 300 maybe up to 350 grains.
I'd start with 325 to 350 grain bullets sized to groove diameter for any smokeless load.

Stick solely to cast bullets…..

- Mike

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AvidFlyer
.224 member

Reged: 12/12/22
Posts: 6
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Re: Joh Springer double rifle questions [Re: 3DogMike]
#372360 - 16/12/22 12:58 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Interesting gun with lots of photos, but no bore shots.
What are the bores & sights like?
11.5mm makes me think maybe a bore size, not a groove diameter, or was .4528" (11.5mm) a common Euro calibre, back then?

Perhaps one of the Euro/German members will chime in?

Add another source:
https://naboje.org/en/node/4254

Sorting thru the closely relevant 11.6 cartridges the bullet weights are variously 20.4-21.5 grams which is 313-331 grains

3dog thanks for the link! Who knew there were so many options 😮. I added some more links with pictures to cast of my Cerosafe chamber cast with measurements hopefully that will be adequate to figure it out I am thinking I should be able to use standard 458 diameter cast bullets around 3-350 from what you guys have side and what I have read

Thanks again

james

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AvidFlyer
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Reged: 12/12/22
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Re: Joh Springer double rifle questions [Re: 85lc]
#372361 - 16/12/22 01:03 PM

Thank you for your time and consideration hopefully 450 nitro express brass will be able to be trimmed to length and find some thick rim if needed to make it work I added pictures with measurements of my chamber cast it looks like I should be able to use standard 458 diameter bullets I will work slowly up after I get approval from my Gunsmith

Thank you again

James

quote]James, That is a very nice looking rifle. It looks like you have done a chamber cast to determine the possible caliber. Looking at COTW, there may be several different base cartridges that you can use to make your brass.

As usually, Mike hit the points that you should consider.

I usually do a chamber cast that includes the 1st : of the bore so I know what size bullet to use. As Mike said. you should slug the bore to determine twist rate. If the bore is uniform (you should be able to tell by the poressure it takes to push the slug thru), you can use the slug for bullet diameter.

For base brass, I first check head diameter, rim thickness, and case length because tose are most important to me. Of copurse, if necessary, base thickness can be cut down using a small lathe provided you don't thin the web and rim thickness can be thinned with a lathe or thickened by two methods.

Provided that the base, rim thickness, and length match, the case body can be sized down with various dies and then fireformed. Or at least, that is what I do.

Some of the black powder cases used fairly light (for caliber) bullets. The 450 BPE used a 270 gr bullet. The 10.75x65R Collath used a 250 gr bullet. However, twist rate should tell you what the builde intended to use, weight wise.

FYI: While not the same caliber, I have a Collath double rifle drilling in 10.75x65R x 10.75x65R x 32 ga. A chamber cast showed that the case was not the same as the commercial 10.75x65R so I used some other cases fireformed to 10 gr Bullseye. I only neck size with 44 mag dies.

Best success

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3DogMike
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Reged: 29/01/15
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Re: Joh Springer double rifle questions [Re: AvidFlyer]
#372367 - 16/12/22 04:11 PM

Avid/James,
Just to be totally clear; common "standard" .450 Nitro Express brass has a thin .040" rim. There was at one time "thick rim ".065" .450 3 1/4" basic brass available from HDS, Bertram, and Hornaday. That brass has not been available in the USA for quite awhile.
These days the ONLY thick rim brass (besides custom turned from Rocky Mountain Cartridge) would be the .450/.400 3" Jeffery.

Easy enough once you actually find some of the Jeffery brass. Trim to rough length, anneal, fireform with ~10 grains of Bullseye and topped with Cream of Wheat and capped with paraffin plug or whatever. Trim to final length, maybe inside neck ream. There you go.

Likely the fire formed cases will be ready to load and fire with the chosen load.

Depending on the rifle & load you may be able to neck size only using a die that happens to work for the desired neck diameter while you wait for custom dies from ch4D. Chances are that the recoil is not enough to have to worry about crimping.

Good luck & keep us informed of your progress.

- Mike

--------------------
"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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DarylS
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Re: Joh Springer double rifle questions [Re: 3DogMike]
#372374 - 16/12/22 04:40 PM

.456" groove diameter is very good. A common .457" sizer die might be perfect, as Mike noted, if they fit into the chamber once loaded.
Of course if using BP, a .452" bullet could also be used, whether grease groove or paper patched. Only shooting will tell.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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kuduae
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Re: Joh Springer double rifle questions [Re: DarylS]
#372386 - 17/12/22 04:08 AM

This „Springer“ double rifle is younger than you thought. It was bp proofed by the Austrian proofhouse number 3 in Weipert, Bohemia, now Vejperti, Czechia, in 1902 as the 2119th gun proofed that year. As Weipert was a gunmaking center just like Ferlach, the rifle was probably made there for Springer, Vienna.
While German proofhouses marked the narrower bore/land diameter of the barrel, the Austrians marked the groove or bullet one. The rifle is obviously chambered for the 11.6x65R D Express, DWM case number 191. As your chamber cast shows, the case is of the “D” shape with a quick taper at the base and more straight after about .5” from he rim. This may be a problem when trying to make cases from available .450 base, but “E” shaped brass. You will have to swage down the case body with a tapered ring die before fireforming.
According to the 1904 DWM catalog, the cartridge was loaded with greased .456 -.459 lead bullets, 300 -390 gr.

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DarylS
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Re: Joh Springer double rifle questions [Re: kuduae]
#372387 - 17/12/22 05:08 AM

Good info, sure beats speculation.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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3DogMike
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Re: Joh Springer double rifle questions [Re: DarylS]
#372388 - 17/12/22 05:27 AM

Ah Hah….I was hoping kuduae would check in with his good info!

- Mike

--------------------
"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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Huvius
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Re: Joh Springer double rifle questions [Re: 3DogMike]
#372399 - 17/12/22 01:29 PM

AvidFlyer, you are very lucky to have this Springer as your first double rifle!
Not only is Springer one of the best Continental makers (in my humble opinion) but once you get her shooting, I'm sure you will be rewarded for your efforts.

As Mike says, starting with 450/400 3" brass may be the most convenient answer to the brass question but some inside neck reaming may be needed to accommodate a .458ish bullet as the wall thickness of the parent case trimmed that far down may be thicker than a "normal" neck would be.

If you have only 450NE (which these days is much harder to find than the 400 brass) you could modify the rim by "waving" the rim.
I think I may have just made that term up...
Anyway, one can wave or dimple the thin rim of a cartridge to accomplish the task of keeping it against the breech. Think of a wave washer.
I've seen it done, but fortunately haven't needed to resort to that method myself.

If you need a handfull of 400 cases, I can help you out.
Or, if you think that this is more headache than you want, and want to pass this Springer on, I can help you out with that also...LOL...

As usual, Kuduae has cleared the fog, so to speak.
Obviously, you have found the right forum. It's all downhill from here...

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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85lc
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Re: Joh Springer double rifle questions [Re: Huvius]
#372413 - 18/12/22 05:51 AM

AvidFlyer.

Following up on Ben's comments to thicken the rim, I have done that for a couple of carttriidges. It is fairly simple. I insert a dowel into the case mouth and place the rim on a steel surface. I use the flat on a vice. Tap the rim with a hammer, stricking a forward blow. A forward blow pushes the outer edges towards the case mouth. It really doesn't take much effort to thicken the rim.

I have also taken piano wire and wrapped it around a steel dowel or bolt and made steel rings that can be slipped over the mouth and down to the rim. I use wire thick enough so that one ring will provide the right headspace.

Have fun shooting your new double.

--------------------
RB

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470evans
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Re: Joh Springer double rifle questions [Re: 85lc]
#372417 - 18/12/22 10:53 AM

I'm surprised they told you they don't have the records for a pre WWII gun.

I contacted Margarethe Weixelbraun at the email address below back in 2017 on a pair of Springer Double Rifles I had purchased. They were built in 1894 for a Maharajah, one in 450 and the other in 360. There was a third built at the same time for the Maharajah in 400 that the seller didn't have any idea of its whereabouts.

They were top lever hammerless boxlock rifles and were beautifully made.

She was very helpful and sent me a copy of the ledger book, they were the last three on the page.

I regret selling them.

MWeixelbraun@springer-vienna.com

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kuduae
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Re: Joh Springer double rifle questions [Re: 470evans]
#372433 - 19/12/22 02:54 AM

Quote:

They were top lever hammerless boxlock rifles and were beautifully made.
She was very helpful and sent me a copy of the ledger book, they were the last three on the page.

Remember what I wrote about the Austrian use of the word “Stutzen” for any hunting rifle here:
http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat....true#Post372095
Note, Springer’s ledger here calls the three double rifles “dopl.Stutz.” = double Stutzen. All other rifles on this page are listed as “Stutzen” too.

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