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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Paradox and Bore Guns

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franzsodia
.224 member

Reged: 23/01/14
Posts: 11
Loc: Michigan

Gibbs 12 bore boxlock paradox circa 1926
#372166 - 10/12/22 04:07 AM

Gentle Readers:
I own a Gibbs 12 bore boxlock paradox gun. According to the Gibbs records - it was sold (not made ) by them in 1926 but they cannot tell me more than that It is proofed for 1 1/4 shot so it is a 2 3/4 inch gun and the flats are stamped for a 735 gr bullet. It came with a paradox style mould made by the previous owner and 25 pie crimped Remington hull cartridges containing a bullet from the included mould, thin plastic gas seal and fibre filler wads. The bullet is .729. I am told that he used 30 gr of sr 4756 for 1180 fps.
Of course, that powder is now extinct. Ross S. used 30 gr of unique in his paradox.
I welcome your thoughts. I would like to tip over a deer in the shotgun zone or perhaps a feral boar with it.

Thanks!

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DarylS
.700 member

Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26992
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...

Re: Gibbs 12 bore boxlock paradox circa 1926 [Re: franzsodia]
#372167 - 10/12/22 05:06 AM

Interesting gun. You seem to be in a good position for a bunch of practice and testing.
Have you tried Ross' load and how does it shoot, regulation wise?

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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franzsodia
.224 member

Reged: 23/01/14
Posts: 11
Loc: Michigan

Re: Gibbs 12 bore boxlock paradox circa 1926 [Re: DarylS]
#372170 - 10/12/22 05:55 AM

I have shot probably 300 rounds of 1 oz and 1 1/8 oz shot loads through it at sporting clays.
Both barrels provide a decent modified pattern with 7 1/2s and 8s. I would have expected the rifling to act like a dispersion choke but it does not.
I have not done anything with bullets. I suppose Ross's load of Unique would be ok, but it sounds like an awfully fast powder for such a heavy bullet.
I am cautious with it because it is not all that common and purchased from a good friend - so it has a sort of talisman like quality for me.
I see a lot out there loadwise in the literature but I worry about pressure.
Worst case scenario I will make up a pliers like "fixer" to put a crimp all around the hull into the groove of the slug and use black. If the bullet protrudes a bit out of the case, that is ok by me.
I think that with black and a very soft slug I will not get in trouble and see if it comes anywhere close to regulation.

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DarylS
.700 member

Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26992
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...

Re: Gibbs 12 bore boxlock paradox circa 1926 [Re: franzsodia]
#372172 - 10/12/22 09:08 AM

Black powder, of course, is also an option.
If you look at Lyman's data in the 12 bore section, you will see various powders and wad columns with a variety of projectiles - styles and weights.
As far as I know, there are no slugs in the 750gr. range, however that is less than 1 3/4oz., being 1.71ounces.
There are shot charges for 12 bores listed in the shot section and are shot with Unique, Herco, Blue dot, Steel and Longshot powders.
taofladermaus - a U-tube channel, had shot many 12 bore loads with slug weights in this range & heavier using Longshot powder. Often his loads run 30gr. and over.
I would peruse Lyman's shotshell loading manual. Typically, wad columns of cork, fiber or donnaconna produce much less pressure than-do the plastic wads of today. Slug loads listed in the manuals run both.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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3DogMike
.400 member

Reged: 29/01/15
Posts: 1464
Loc: Western Slope, Colorado USA

Re: Gibbs 12 bore boxlock paradox circa 1926 [Re: DarylS]
#372175 - 10/12/22 10:55 AM

3rd Edition of Graeme Wright's book "Shooting The British Double Rifle" has an entire chapter (14) devoted to Paradox guns with suitable loads for the 12 Bore with Paradox type bullets. Blue Dot & Unique loads published.
Remember, it is essentially a rifled shotgun so typical shotgun powders are indicated, don't worry about Unique.

If ….the big "if"….you pursue black powder loads just be sure to use a black powder compatible lube. I personally recommend SPG.
Smokeless loads? Yes, Lee Alox or any other lube will be fine.
- Mike

--------------------
"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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DarylS
.700 member

Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26992
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...

Re: Gibbs 12 bore boxlock paradox circa 1926 [Re: 3DogMike]
#372177 - 10/12/22 11:35 AM

In the larger calibres, .45 and up, I have used SPG, Lyman's Black Powder Gold as well as BW/Vas mix with smokeless loads as well as BP. They worked very well indeed for velocities all the way up to 2,200fps.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Marrakai
.416 member

Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3591
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia

Re: Gibbs 12 bore boxlock paradox circa 1926 [Re: DarylS]
#372183 - 10/12/22 02:22 PM

In my Holloway nitro Paradox boxlock retailed by Peter Orr and Son (Madras) in the 1920s, I use the following "recipe":
Winchester low-base compression-formed hulls trimmed to 2 1/2 inches, 33.5gr Blue Dot, Winchester pink AA Superflite (iirc) plastic wad with petals cut off, 730gr Fosbery projectile cast from 15:1 lead/tin and heavily Lee Liquid-aloxed, roll-crimped (with specialized roll-crimper).
Just started trials with HiTek-coated 20:1 alloy, but no results to report yet.
Regulates in the Holloway Paradox.

Use this info however you feel comfortable, but the usual cautions apply.

Hope it helps.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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franzsodia
.224 member

Reged: 23/01/14
Posts: 11
Loc: Michigan

Re: Gibbs 12 bore boxlock paradox circa 1926 [Re: Marrakai]
#372334 - 16/12/22 01:26 AM

MEA CULPA

In my original post, I listed Ross's load as 30 grains of Unique.

THIS IS INCORRECT.

Ross's load was 21.5 grains of Unique.

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DarylS
.700 member

Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26992
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...

Re: Gibbs 12 bore boxlock paradox circa 1926 [Re: franzsodia]
#372335 - 16/12/22 02:37 AM

Just had a look in Lyman's 5th Edition of Shotshell Loading book and the heaviest 'slug' listed for 2 3/4" hulls is 525gr., their .69 calibre slug that looks like a Diabolo Pellet. This one fits into plastic wads, usually the Red Winchester WAA12R wad, but others are listed as well - for smokeless loads.
Other loads, including fiber wads is their 475gr. Foster slug.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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3DogMike
.400 member

Reged: 29/01/15
Posts: 1464
Loc: Western Slope, Colorado USA

Re: Gibbs 12 bore boxlock paradox circa 1926 [Re: DarylS]
#372341 - 16/12/22 03:27 AM

Just an aside here: Before he passed away, Cal Pappas was working up successful loads for 12, 10, & 8 Bores using Unique. He had very successfully used Blue Dot but never got to the point of finishing and publishing suggested loads using Unique.
He liked these loads because they were much lessened recoil for the same performance as original Black Powder loadings as well as cleaner & no smoke.
- Mike

--------------------
"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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DarylS
.700 member

Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26992
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...

Re: Gibbs 12 bore boxlock paradox circa 1926 [Re: 3DogMike]
#372343 - 16/12/22 05:50 AM

From my own experience with black powder 12 bore ball loads and duplicating those loads using smokeless, I found the smokeless loads produced what felt like 1/2 the recoil, yet they shot identically.
I guess this means that the loads were only velocity induced for impact and sighting, not recoil induced. Perhaps Cal P. found the same thing?

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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470evans
.333 member

Reged: 30/03/05
Posts: 278
Loc: Texas, USA

Re: Gibbs 12 bore boxlock paradox circa 1926 [Re: DarylS]
#372419 - 18/12/22 11:39 AM

My 12 bore Holland Paradox regulates well with 23.5grs of Unique in a 2 1/2" old style AA Hull with a slug cast from the NEI Paradox mold. I seat the slug over a WAA12 wad with the petals removed and a 1/4" felt wad. I use a roll crimper to finish it off.

I had originally used teflon tape to wrap the slugs as outlined in Wright's book but found the bore would lead after 4-5 shots and cleaning them was a pain. I then discovered powder coating and the leading has disappeared.

My bores measure .737 and I size the slugs in a .735 push through die.

I'm getting 1040 fps with this load.

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