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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Building Double Rifles & Gunsmithing
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tarawa
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Loc: South Florida
A hypothetical question.
      #368051 - 30/07/22 10:53 PM

Say I have a SxS shotgun that that shoots rifled slugs accurately from both barrels at say 40-50 yards. What accuracy would one expect from the same gun with rifled sleeves inserted into the barrels? I don’t know if this would be like comparing apples to apples or not. I would like to find. (or make) some .577 BPE barrel tubes or sleeves. I don’t want to go the rifle building route at this point in my life, but this sounds like a great experiment or project.

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Longknife
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Re: A hypothetical question. [Re: tarawa]
      #368052 - 30/07/22 11:14 PM

Tarawa, I think it would be a crap shoot to get the gun to shoot two different loads to the same point or aim. IMHO.. It MIGHT be possible with hand loads and lots of testing (shooting)....Maybe?

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Longknife

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: A hypothetical question. [Re: Longknife]
      #368058 - 31/07/22 01:30 AM

Quote:

Tarawa, I think it would be a crap shoot to get the gun to shoot two different loads to the same point or aim. IMHO..



Why two different loads?

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tarawa
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Re: A hypothetical question. [Re: NitroX]
      #368063 - 31/07/22 06:23 AM

How does the recoil of a .577 BPE 3 1/4” compare to a 12ga. rifled slug? I was thinking recoil has most to do with the POI of a double, but I am just guessing.

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tarawa
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Re: A hypothetical question. [Re: NitroX]
      #368064 - 31/07/22 06:25 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Tarawa, I think it would be a crap shoot to get the gun to shoot two different loads to the same point or aim. IMHO..



Why two different loads?



I believe he meant 12 ga vs .577???

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eagle27
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Re: A hypothetical question. [Re: tarawa]
      #368068 - 31/07/22 08:12 AM

Quote:

Say I have a SxS shotgun that that shoots rifled slugs accurately from both barrels at say 40-50 yards. What accuracy would one expect from the same gun with rifled sleeves inserted into the barrels? I don’t know if this would be like comparing apples to apples or not. I would like to find. (or make) some .577 BPE barrel tubes or sleeves. I don’t want to go the rifle building route at this point in my life, but this sounds like a great experiment or project.



Do you actually have a shotgun that shoots rifled slugs accurately from both barrels, or is this part of the hypothetical question too?
A German friend of mine had a 20G SXS made in Ferlach specifically regulated for slugs, but I suggest most factory made shotguns are not regulated for shooting slugs, they are set up to pattern shot from both barrels to a similar POA, the POA not so critical for shot patterns as it would be for slugs.

If indeed you do already have a shotgun that regulates satisfactorily with slugs then the same gun sleeved to 577 BPE is not guaranteed to achieve the same regulation as a matter of course, it would almost certainly need to be specifically regulated.

In reality a BPE conversion would not gain much over the better 12G slugs available today, depending of course on what slugs do regulate in the 12G SxS. Anyone coming across a double shotgun that regulates with good slugs has a goldmine and I would keep it that way.

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Hunter4752001
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Re: A hypothetical question. [Re: eagle27]
      #368070 - 31/07/22 08:32 AM

If your SxS is fitted with interchangeable chokes, then you should be able to fins a pair of rifled chokes to suit. They will increase the accuracy but you still have the issue of regulation.

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3DogMike
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Re: A hypothetical question. [Re: Hunter4752001]
      #368071 - 31/07/22 09:12 AM

A .577 Black Powder Express operates at more or less 3 times the pressure of common 12ga shotshells…….
- Mike

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260rem
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Re: A hypothetical question. [Re: 3DogMike]
      #368075 - 31/07/22 01:45 PM

You could try riffles chokes 1st, that "MIGHT" give you an indication.

But a better option would be insert barrels that you can index and adjust poi.
That would limit you to smaller calibres, but trying to sleeve two shotgun barrels and get them to shoot accurately is an expensive flip of a coin.

My money is on turning it into a ball and shot gun, my factory regulated one hits slugs from both barrels on a 10" gong at 100m just using a flip up sight and a shooting stick.
It could hit a smaller gong but with those sights and my eyes the 10" gong is as small as I can see.

I've got magtech brass cases that I load with 32gm slugs that are easy to load and hit hard, although I haven't had the opportunity to shoot any game with them past 40-50m so far, and in truth I prefer RB and hunting game out to 50m anyway.

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tarawa
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Re: A hypothetical question. [Re: 260rem]
      #368076 - 31/07/22 02:06 PM

I am working on a SxS now. It is a Simson Suhl with 25’’ cylinder bore barrels. Plan is to work up a load (hopefully shoots well enough at 40-50 yards with factory loads) for hogs here in Florida., So everything is hypothetical at this point. Just another stupid idea that I dreamed up. I have been reading a lot of posts on different sites and it seems that good European double seem to regulate pretty good at the range I am hoping for, but they use Brennke slugs. Time (and a few slugs) will tell if I screwed up a good double by removing the chokes.

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Marrakai
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Re: A hypothetical question. [Re: tarawa]
      #368078 - 31/07/22 02:46 PM

tarawa:
I wanted a double-slugger a few years ago so I acquired a SxS 12-bore with damaged muzzles and re-regulated it for RC4 slugs.
They turned out to be rubbish on game, but it shoots the Rio "Bala Blindada" slugs perfectly.
I even killed a couple of buffalo with that Rio load.
Unfortunately availability of the Rio slugs is now an issue!
...so I'll have to work up a load for the Brenneke projectiles I have had on the shelf for years now.

But my point is:
Just regulate the shortened shottie for your favorite slug or round-ball load and keep it dedicated for the purpose. Then you can fit the sights of your choice as well, and have yourself a fat time trying to wear it out on hogs!

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Marrakai
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tarawa
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Re: A hypothetical question. [Re: Marrakai]
      #368083 - 31/07/22 10:13 PM

Quote:

tarawa:
I wanted a double-slugger a few years ago so I acquired a SxS 12-bore with damaged muzzles and re-regulated it for RC4 slugs.
They turned out to be rubbish on game, but it shoots the Rio "Bala Blindada" slugs perfectly.
I even killed a couple of buffalo with that Rio load.
Unfortunately availability of the Rio slugs is now an issue!
...so I'll have to work up a load for the Brenneke projectiles I have had on the shelf for years now.

But my point is:
Just regulate the shortened shottie for your favorite slug or round-ball load and keep it dedicated for the purpose. Then you can fit the sights of your choice as well, and have yourself a fat time trying to wear it out on hogs!



Did you regulate it by trying different loads or did you actually desolder/ resolver the barrels? I will probably start by trying different slugs and see which shoots the tightest at 40 yards or so.

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260rem
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Re: A hypothetical question. [Re: tarawa]
      #368093 - 01/08/22 10:36 AM

Different loads, style of loading and slug selection can have an enormous impact on regulation especially with smooth bores.
Sometimes I prefer less accurate slugs as they seem to overcome regulation by being more consistent. I'd rather a 6" group at 50m then two 2" groups 3" apart.
I view it more as a tighter pattern then as a group. I've also noticed that factory regulated guns aren't always better then playing with loads with a less regulated gun.
Once you find that butter zone many guns become great shooters.
But you have to find that load before you start to mess with the gun too much as some just won't behave and some turn out to be exceptional.
Many loads that are brilliant in a, single barrel gun just don't regulate in a double, but less accurate ones perform brilliant in a double.
But every now and then you find something that's just magic.

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tarawa
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Re: A hypothetical question. [Re: 260rem]
      #368094 - 01/08/22 12:13 PM

I am going to start out with readily available slugs that are not super high velocity/recoil. I am thinking less recoil sometimes relates to accuracy in a double. I have read that when regulating a double rifle, recoil has a lot to do with accuracy. Torquing the barrel up and to the right or left depending on barrel.

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Marrakai
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Re: A hypothetical question. [Re: tarawa]
      #368095 - 01/08/22 05:16 PM

Quote:

Did you regulate it by trying different loads or did you actually desolder/ resolver the barrels?


Tarawa:
The barrels had well-and-truly de-soldered themselves prior to my acquisition!
The previous owner's best mate had stuck the muzzles underwater in a billabong to shoot a barramundi. Hilarious!
I got it cheap...

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
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mauserand9mm
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Re: A hypothetical question. [Re: Marrakai]
      #368108 - 03/08/22 03:05 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Did you regulate it by trying different loads or did you actually desolder/ resolver the barrels?


Tarawa:
The barrels had well-and-truly de-soldered themselves prior to my acquisition!
The previous owner's best mate had stuck the muzzles underwater in a billabong to shoot a barramundi. Hilarious!
I got it cheap...



Did he get the barramundi?

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Marrakai
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Re: A hypothetical question. [Re: mauserand9mm]
      #368113 - 03/08/22 07:25 PM

Quote:

Did he get the barramundi?


Reckon he got a fright!

Actually, I didn't ask about the outcome regarding the barramundi.
Too busy laughing at the outcome regarding the muzzles!

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Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
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eagle27
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Re: A hypothetical question. [Re: Marrakai]
      #368120 - 04/08/22 08:27 AM

Removing chokes to cylinder bore is not such a problem for a shotgun, cylinder bore is recommended for slugs and with modern wads cylinder bores pattern shot well.

I have often used my skeet chokes in my Miroku O/U when shooting ducks at closer range but notice I also score well on ducks at longer range too with these open chokes.

Friend of mine once went out for a duck shoot walking drains and streams and had a great shoot scoring exceptionally well on mallards and then discovered when he got home that he had forgotten to put a choke back in his Winchester semi auto gun when he last cleaned it so he shot better than ever with an open bore gun. From then on he just used his cylinder choke for that style of shooting.

Many shooters are over choked and use too large a shot size too.

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260rem
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Re: A hypothetical question. [Re: eagle27]
      #368123 - 04/08/22 11:06 AM

I can agree with that, testing actually showed the best pattern and the most useful for all shooting situations was Imp/Cyl.
The Center pattern holds enough density that if your aim is centred then you can still get a killing pattern out past 40 yards.

As to shot size that's really where TSS really shines, but as long as the shit is heavy enough for sufficient penetration then the pattern has a bigger effect on killing power then the penetration.

That's why the #1 shot size in Europe for driven roe deer is actually #2 shot and not BB's or #4 buck or anything like that.

During one of my tangent quests for a buck and ball shotgun I bought a cheap coach gun with Imo/Cyl barrels, it was actually originally Mod and Full but the original owner opened them up for western action shoots.
But anyway I put a scope on it and it was quite deadly with round ball, not impressive but I've since learned a lot about loading RB.
But I went away on a big driven fox shoot, #2 were supposed to be the biggest shot allowed but as far as I could tell 42gm BB's were all anyone was using except me. I decided to bring 36gm #3 for a denser pattern to try and get a bit more range.
Turns out every fox I shot was at the 50-60 yard mark, that scope let me lead perfectly and put the centre of the pattern at the head/neck/front chest area. I ain't going to say they were DRT, some took 3 shots at that range to finish off but what matters is when hit they stopped running and were hurt bad.
I was really surprised but that experience changed my views on chokes and shot size and really made me think patterns kill not shot.

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