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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles
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N320AW
.224 member


Reged: 15/08/05
Posts: 27
Loc: Georgia USA
Where did the factory .458's velocity go!?
      #36586 - 28/08/05 01:20 PM

I remember clearly, when a youngster, the advertised velocity of the Winchester .458 was 2130FPS. For the past 20 years or so it is listed as 2040FPS.

Did the manufactuers purposely reduce the velocity or did they find that out of a 22" tube it really was the lessor of the two?

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" Nature does not care whether the hunter slays the beast or the beast the hunter She will make good compost of them both and her ends are prospered whichever succeeds. "

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475Guy
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Reged: 22/08/03
Posts: 1088
Loc: Kali, US
Re: Where did the factory .458's velocity go!? [Re: N320AW]
      #36597 - 28/08/05 11:14 PM

There was a bit of "blue sky" with the quoted velocities in the past. In fact, the only way to go over 2100 was with a 26" barrel or so. I believe the velocities of old were achieved with pressure barrels only. Also, the Winchester people loaded the original rounds with ball powder and severely compressed them when seating the bullet and gluing the bullet in place. The factories realized that chronographing the actual velocites out of an actual rifle gave a more practical velocity. They also downloaded the round with less powder for a while. With today's powders and combination of bullets, you can safely reach 2150 w/o overly compressing the powder and do so w/o skyrocketing pressures.

--------------------
Lo do they call to me,
They bid me take my place among
them in the Halls of Valhalla,
Where the brave may live forever.

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27014
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Where did the factory .458's velocity go!? [Re: 475Guy]
      #36601 - 29/08/05 02:07 AM

I'm not so sure about skyrocketing pressures in the .458 with 2,130fps loads IF the proper powder is used.
: I've been a wildcat ctg. shooter for many years, with one being a short .458 since the early 70's.
: That .458 2", 22" bl. loaded with either 4320 or H335, averaged 2,059fps. with 510gr. Winchester bullets or 2,062fps with the Hornady's. Those loads, while probably 'up there' were not excessive in my rifle, shot well, and in all my shooting with that rifle- probably 8,000 rounds and over 20 shots per case, has never expanded a primer pocket. I used .338 and .458 brass almost exclusively, only recently switching to .350RemMag.
: The chamber was long throated and actually equivalent to a length of 2.3" if measured against cannelure height of seated rounds.
; The ultimate test for high presure, is brass life- many were discrded due to split necks, but never a primer pocket. I still have some of the original brass, still going after over 30 years.
: With it's greater capacity & with the proper powder, there should be no problem getting factory-spec velocties from the .458 Mag's 2.5" case.
: I firmly believe there were problems getting that velocity with some of the powders people tried to use - mainly a fault in choice of powder, not in the round itself. Will it do it with large sticks of powder- probably not - but with proper ball or short stick powders - easily.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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475Guy
.400 member


Reged: 22/08/03
Posts: 1088
Loc: Kali, US
Re: Where did the factory .458's velocity go!? [Re: DarylS]
      #36616 - 29/08/05 01:54 PM

The older Mod 70's had short throats and the powder would clump up from being overly compressed. All that is needed is a bit of research and you'll find that the factory loaded rounds were the culprit and the main reason that Jack Lott came up with the 458 Lott.

--------------------
Lo do they call to me,
They bid me take my place among
them in the Halls of Valhalla,
Where the brave may live forever.

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27014
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Where did the factory .458's velocity go!? [Re: 475Guy]
      #36625 - 30/08/05 12:27 AM

I've never had factoy ammo clock what the box says. Apparently, even the factory Lott ammo, is 100 to 200fps low of published ballistics.
: Factories lie - if you want listed ballistics, you have to load them yourself.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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510Wells
.275 member


Reged: 16/11/03
Posts: 62
Loc: Gold Bar, Wa.
Re: Where did the factory .458's velocity go!? [Re: DarylS]
      #36635 - 30/08/05 12:16 PM

Humm, the Hornady 458 Lott factory loads clocked in at 2268 average out of My Ruger RSM.

Close enough for me...

Roi

--------------------
The only constant is change.

Member DRSS

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DeishuAK
.224 member


Reged: 01/01/05
Posts: 28
Loc: Chilkat Peninsula, Alaska
Re: Where did the factory .458's velocity go!? [Re: N320AW]
      #37013 - 07/09/05 10:23 AM

I recently chronographed some factory Federal 400 gr TB Bear Claws out of my 22" barreled Win M70 and actually got around 10 fps faster than the factory listed velocity (2383 listed - actual velocity averaged 2393). I'm not sure about the 500 + grainers, but my 22 incher is getting better than listed with the 400 gr Bear Claws factory stuff.

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Poacher
.224 member


Reged: 18/08/05
Posts: 11
Loc: Sunny Florida USA
Re: Where did the factory .458's velocity go!? [Re: DeishuAK]
      #37021 - 07/09/05 02:44 PM

.458 bullets are certainly fine and are available in a great variety of expanding, soft nose, and solids. Surely we all value the extra "Stopping" capability of the larger diameter bullet when driven at good speeds, but lately most PH look for at least 2450 fps or better as long as pressure is under control to facilitate easy extraction in the summer heat. My Dakota 76 African bolt gun in .450 Dakota delivers the SMACK that a .458 bullet should pack and yet keeps reliability at the maximum by controling pressures with that lovely unbelted .416 Rigy case. Of all the .458 delivery systems I have owned over the last thirty-odd years, I find this one to be the most satisfactory. Better yet, loaded rounds from Dakota chrono where they're advertised. Regards, Poacher

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