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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Single Shots & Combination Guns
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DoubleD
.400 member


Reged: 23/11/03
Posts: 2437
Loc: Retired in Oklahoma
577 NE Greener Martini
      #365262 - 06/05/22 12:04 AM



This is a Greener Martini currently chambered in 577 2-3/4 NE. I bought it from a customer some years ago as an unfinished project.

I am currently working on it to get it ready to take it to SA next year for Cape Buffalo.

All it needs is the stocks finished out and the load position adjusted. Trigger is fine. Barrel is new.

I have discovered that the gun will feed 577 3inch NE. The rounds will turn the corner and go in the chamber. Of course the 3 inch cartridge won't seat as the chamber is only 2-3/4"



I have forty 3 inch cases.

I have a 577 3inch NE reamer.

I am getting ready to send this gun off and have the load position adjusted.

The question to this group.

Should I send the reamer with the gun and have it rechambered to 3 inch?

Why?

Why not?

--------------------
DD, Ret.

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50Calshtr
.300 member


Reged: 01/11/05
Posts: 119
Loc: Southeast Georgia
Re: 577 NE Greener Martini [Re: DoubleD]
      #365263 - 06/05/22 01:44 AM

Douglas,
Looks like a great project! If it were mine I think I'd stick to the 2 3/4" chamber if for no other reason than at some point someone (probably me) would be tempted to drop a full blown 3"NE in it and give it a go. If Marrikai is to be believed the shorter case is more than sufficient for buffalo and would be far more pleasant/managable on the butt end. Of course either way, as a single shot, you will have far more options regarding loads, BP, Nfb or NE. You may want to get 5-6 cases, trim them to 2 3/4 and give it a test run with various loads. I don't know about you but I'm getting to the age where getting the living snot kicked out of me is losing it's appeal, I'd rather enjoy the rifle than think "Oh crap, this is going to hurt" every time I take it to the range. I guess I'm not the man I used to be in some eyes but after forty years of shooting these rifles, it is what it is.
Take care!

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26999
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 577 NE Greener Martini [Re: 50Calshtr]
      #365265 - 06/05/22 02:30 AM

DITTO!!!

Very well put, 50Calshtr. I have nothing I can add.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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93x64mm
.416 member


Reged: 07/12/11
Posts: 4200
Loc: Nth QLD Australia
Re: 577 NE Greener Martini [Re: DarylS]
      #365273 - 06/05/22 06:47 AM

Well I guess you can shoot the 2 3/4" shells in a 3" chamber, pressure wise they should be the same if you are using BP.
Not sure if Nitro powder, there will be difference for sure. As to the Martini's strength, is this a shotgun conversion DD?
Still one big thump either end using the smaller case!

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260rem
.375 member


Reged: 16/04/06
Posts: 757
Loc: NSW Australia
Re: 577 NE Greener Martini [Re: 93x64mm]
      #365277 - 06/05/22 09:47 AM

They are a nice gun them, still plenty of life in the old rounds yet.

--------------------
One shot is all you need.

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DoubleD
.400 member


Reged: 23/11/03
Posts: 2437
Loc: Retired in Oklahoma
Re: 577 NE Greener Martini [Re: 260rem]
      #365283 - 06/05/22 10:20 PM

Yes this was a shotgun action but it is not one of the split actions--it is an early solid gun.

This will be a nitro gun and working pressure should be just fine. This was a double gun cartridge and pressure are low 10 to 12.5 tons range.

I am headed to the range this morning a for a 10 round function test. 600 grain .585 cast bullets (CBE 585-600) using Trail Boss.

I will be just shooting the 10 rounds over crossed sticks at a gong just see if the gun functions.

--------------------
DD, Ret.

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93x64mm
.416 member


Reged: 07/12/11
Posts: 4200
Loc: Nth QLD Australia
Re: 577 NE Greener Martini [Re: DoubleD]
      #365301 - 07/05/22 07:32 AM

Have fun mate - we're all jealous!

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DoubleD
.400 member


Reged: 23/11/03
Posts: 2437
Loc: Retired in Oklahoma
Re: 577 NE Greener Martini [Re: 93x64mm]
      #365311 - 07/05/22 09:36 PM

Well the test fire went well.

I confirmed that the load position needs adjusted, definitely.


But a bigger problem cropped up. Extraction.

The Martini action notoriously has an issue with extraction and this gun is no exception.

The powder used for these test load was Trail Boss. Trail Boss has a reputation for excessive pressure for the velocity achieved.

Watch the video.

https://youtu.be/t6zlT8BYh58

I can probably resolved this problem fairly easy. But I just don't want to trust this gun hunting dangerous game.

I will get the load position is resolved and try some other powders.

But am not going to take this gun to Africa.

I already have my Outfitter/Gun Dealer looking for a Ruger 1 in 450/400 NE for me.

--------------------
DD, Ret.

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NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39885
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: 577 NE Greener Martini [Re: DoubleD]
      #365313 - 07/05/22 09:54 PM

Well you have answered that one. I was going to say, if the MH can handle full powered 3" loads, go the 3".

These extraction problems say, stay with the 2 3/4".

I hope the extraction problems can be resolved.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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3DogMike
.400 member


Reged: 29/01/15
Posts: 1464
Loc: Western Slope, Colorado USA
Re: 577 NE Greener Martini [Re: NitroX]
      #365323 - 08/05/22 04:47 AM

Douglas,
Re: the extraction problem…..if it turns out to be too high a pressure; "I have read" (cannot locate the source right now) that Trail Boss is not a good choice in the large Nitro Express or Black Powder Express cartridges.
With the suggested method of determining loads that works on pistol or smaller rifle cases (base of the bullet) the pressures are way overboard in the large capacity cases. Possible that this is the issue? Was the primer flattened more than expected? Chronograph?

The only other possibility I can figure is a poorly reamed/polished chamber that is maybe jug shaped and will not let the fired cartridge slide out.
Have you ever done a chamber cast?

Here's hoping you had a range rod to get the case out……
- Mike

ADDED: A ha, found it.
Trail Boss load difficulties are outlined In Graeme Wright's book Shooting the British Double Rifle, 3rd Edition, Chapter Six, pages 130-131
paragraph 4
"…..What Sherman (Bell) found was that the recommended starting load of 70% of the case volume gave approximately equal pressure to the normal full load of black powder….." and "…..all higher loads were above the normal operating pressure…."
paragraph 5
"…..Trail Boss is not a suitable powder for use in black powder express rifles where loads are duplicating original ballistics. It may be suitable for reduced loads, however, these then may not regulate in a double rifle. If you do wish to use this powder in a BPE Express rifle, then use the 70% figure as a maximum load….."

So:
I infer that one can extrapolate that even though your .577 2 3/4" is not really a "black powder express" so much as a "Light Cordite", the result may be essentially the same.

--------------------
"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

Edited by 3DogMike (08/05/22 05:12 AM)

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lancaster
.470 member


Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 9034
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...
Re: 577 NE Greener Martini [Re: 3DogMike]
      #365325 - 08/05/22 05:25 AM

to bad it made problems, it still looks like an interesting possibility

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3591
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: 577 NE Greener Martini [Re: lancaster]
      #365328 - 08/05/22 09:29 AM

Exactly what Mike said.
I was intending to find Sherman Bell's article to refer to before posting, but my time is not my own at the moment. Forgot about Wrighty's reference.
Douglas: as I indicated in PM the light "practice" loads are fine in a single-barrel as there is no requirement for regulation as in a double.
With normal medium-burning powders just work up to your tolerance limit or ballistic requisite and add filler/wads to keep the powder at the business end.
Trail Boss is an entirely different kettle of fish however.

I'm sure that all else being equal you should get not just reliable extraction but ejection with the 2 3/4 case in the Martini action. I wouldn't be so quick to write it off as an African safari hammer.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26999
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 577 NE Greener Martini [Re: Marrakai]
      #365331 - 08/05/22 10:05 AM

I have no idea what TB pressures would be in the .577.
I do know, that listed data shows pressures in the 30,000psi range in bottle necked cases loaded to 100% under the bullet.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39885
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: 577 NE Greener Martini [Re: DarylS]
      #365335 - 08/05/22 03:03 PM

I hope you can still use the 577 as well.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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DoubleD
.400 member


Reged: 23/11/03
Posts: 2437
Loc: Retired in Oklahoma
Re: 577 NE Greener Martini [Re: NitroX]
      #365339 - 08/05/22 11:07 PM

Trail Boss was used as an expedient only to give me load to function test this gun. I am/was aware of Sherman Bells tests with trail boss and considered the excessive pressure of this powder. The excess being moderate and not destructive.


Actual extraction of the case was not difficult. Operation of the lever would eventually drop the case out.

I am going load a few more rounds up with regular powder and see what happens. But I have lost trust and confidence in this gun and it is not a single shot I want in my hands hunting a cape buffalo.

I will definitely load up the 750 grain bullets and take this gun to the Victorian Rifleman shoots for the guys to try and sample vigorous recoil.

My outfitter is currently looking for a Ruger No. 1 in 450/400 3" or 416 Ruger for me. The wife said I had to do it, so why argue with her.

I am also going to research these pages and see why I am not looking at my other Greener Rifle in 577/500 no. 2 Express for cape buffalo. I think some time back some one here discouraged it.

--------------------
DD, Ret.

Edited by DoubleD (08/05/22 11:11 PM)

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