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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Single Shots & Combination Guns
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bigskybound
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Reged: 12/06/15
Posts: 55
Loc: Arkansas
English Cape Gun
      #363713 - 21/03/22 02:30 AM

I just bought this cape gun at auction. It is not yet in my hands. All I know is that it 12ga/.45 bore and was sold, probably in South Africa, by retailer Thomas Barnsley. Since I cannot figure out how to post photos, attaching link. Can anyone shed light on possible maker? Thanks.

https://www.proxibid.com/Firearms-Milita...&rfpb=0#Top

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DarylS
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Re: English Cape Gun [Re: bigskybound]
      #363714 - 21/03/22 02:45 AM

Interesting gun indeed. Seems like it went very cheap?
T. Barnsley on lock and Barrel rib. The 7 rear sights seems a little hopeful. VERY interesting indeed.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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lancaster
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Re: English Cape Gun [Re: DarylS]
      #363717 - 21/03/22 02:58 AM



















nice cape gun, chance is high its a 450 martini henry or a 450 musket No. 2

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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3DogMike
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Reged: 29/01/15
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Re: English Cape Gun [Re: DarylS]
      #363718 - 21/03/22 03:14 AM

Interesting Combo gun and quite early.
Thomas Barnsley was born 1841 in Birmingham, and as an adult emigrated to the Orange Free State (South Africa) in 1874. Principally had shops in Bloemfontein, Pretoria and Port Elizabeth.
The gun was almost assuredly made in Birmingham and likely by Philip Webley for Barnsley.
When you take delivery and can get pictures of the proof marks, and any other marks, that would possibly be useful.

Those multitude of leaf sights are seemingly typical of guns made for the South Africa trade. I have read that it was not uncommon back in the day, if unable to approach closer, that one would use the "long range" leaf (or sometimes a fitted ladder sight) and blaze off at a herd. The .577/.450 MH bullet will certainly kill plains game at great distances……..Wounding, and later hunter ethics, were apparently of little concern.

ADDED: the Grahamstown barrel address would date the gun to 1877 or later. Barnsley only opened his own business in Grahamstown in 1877, prior to that he worked for Grainger & Sons. All of the Thomas Barnsley shops were closed by 1885-1887.
- Mike

--------------------
"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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bigskybound
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Reged: 12/06/15
Posts: 55
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Re: English Cape Gun [Re: 3DogMike]
      #363720 - 21/03/22 04:07 AM

Thanks for the replies and to Lancaster for getting the photos posted. I also believe this went cheap. I am hoping it will be from a well-known, high-end manufacturer.

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93x64mm
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Reged: 07/12/11
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Re: English Cape Gun [Re: bigskybound]
      #363723 - 21/03/22 08:51 AM

Very nice piece indeed Bigsky!
Wilk be interesting to see what the rifle side will turn out to be

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TH44
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Re: English Cape Gun [Re: 93x64mm]
      #363730 - 21/03/22 12:35 PM

Very nice, almost certainly a percussion conversion, possibly a pinfire in between??

As Mike says, early, made in the Birmingham trade, the multiplicity of sights classic for the South African market

Finger rest is early as is the peg fore end, but rebounding locks later?

They were made from early to quite late, I have one in percussion - Evans in 488"- 40 bore 2 groove and 12bore
and one Westley Richards built in 1903 in .577/450 and 12 bore, each with the 8 sights

A good pick up, especially of the price was good - enjoy shooting it!

TH

Edited by TH44 (21/03/22 12:37 PM)

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: English Cape Gun [Re: DarylS]
      #363736 - 21/03/22 07:54 PM

Quote:

The 7 rear sights seems a little hopeful. VERY interesting indeed.



Looking from above, some V sights may be for one barrel or the other? Seem off centre or differently positioned?



The standing leaf might be a slight bit to the right?

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

Edited by NitroX (21/03/22 10:30 PM)

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bigskybound
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Reged: 12/06/15
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Re: English Cape Gun [Re: TH44]
      #363739 - 21/03/22 10:17 PM

Quote:

Very nice, almost certainly a percussion conversion, possibly a pinfire in between??

As Mike says, early, made in the Birmingham trade, the multiplicity of sights classic for the South African market

Finger rest is early as is the peg fore end, but rebounding locks later?

They were made from early to quite late, I have one in percussion - Evans in 488"- 40 bore 2 groove and 12bore
and one Westley Richards built in 1903 in .577/450 and 12 bore, each with the 8 sights

A good pick up, especially of the price was good - enjoy shooting it!

TH


TH:
I am generally ignorant about these cape guns. I like them, and have owned a number over the years, but never really studied up on their history or evolution. What would be the process of converting from percussion to cartridge? Just the barrels cut back and possibly repurposed stock components? Color me curious.
BSB

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bigskybound
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Reged: 12/06/15
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Re: English Cape Gun [Re: NitroX]
      #363740 - 21/03/22 10:19 PM

TH:
I am generally ignorant about these cape guns. I like them, and have owned a number over the years, but never really studied up on their history or evolution. What would be the process of converting from percussion to cartridge? Just the barrels cut back and possibly repurposed stock components? Color me curious.
BSB

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HuviusModerator
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Re: English Cape Gun [Re: NitroX]
      #363743 - 22/03/22 02:54 AM

Quote:


Looking from above, some V sights may be for one barrel or the other? Seem off centre or differently positioned?

The standing leaf might be a slight bit to the right?



I think the standing sight is part of the island set into the rib and the folding leaves are attached to another plate which fits into the island.
The leaf plate just needs to be drifted over a bit at the rear.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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DarylS
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Re: English Cape Gun [Re: Huvius]
      #363747 - 22/03/22 03:55 AM

That's what I figured as well, Huvius.
This picture actually shows that the standing sight is dovetailed into the rib, while the 6 leaf sights appear to be on a different base, also dovetailed into the rib.
Hard to say for sure, though. The leaf's notches do no appear in ling with the standing sight, which might be lighting as well in the top-shot. They are very close, though.

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TH44
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Re: English Cape Gun [Re: DarylS]
      #363761 - 22/03/22 11:52 AM

Pics of my 3 South African market gunsights

Top - Percussion Evans
Middle -WR Monkeytail sporter
Bottom - WR 12bore x .577/450 cartridge



Note the adjustable ladder sight on the Monkeytail, driftable as Huvius states
With a most optimistic 1500 yards!!

Cape guns/rifles were popular in Africa, the .450 to .500 would drop any game at a pinch
the shotgun for other game/food

With the advent of cartridge rifles percussion was obsolete (Not entirely, hence the popularity of the Monkeytail) so many/most gunmakers offered conversions, especially to shotguns as 12/13 bores, 10 to 8 bores and 6 to 4 bores etc simpler to do than a rifled barrel, although I have seen a couple in .500 BPE

The usual signs, particularly the patchbox in the stock Jones lever )Lever over guard) as well as odd bits on the engraving

I have a WW Greener converted 4 bore goose gun (marked as such)

I would love to know exactly how it was done, a hooked breech helps i suppose

These early hammer rifles are my favourite and would grab yours (if in the UK) in an instant at that price

TH

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lancaster
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Re: English Cape Gun [Re: TH44]
      #363777 - 22/03/22 04:12 PM

when seeing this express sights allways asking myself if they realy take the time and money than and test the guns on all this ranges if its right before selling the rifle.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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DarylS
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Re: English Cape Gun [Re: lancaster]
      #363790 - 23/03/22 06:33 AM

I've pondered the same thing, lancaster. My opinion, for what it is worth, is nadda/no sight regulation beyond point blank range out to 150yards - MAYBE.
Where would this testing/filing/testing be done by a London or Birmingham maker, for the ranges noted by the sight leaves?
Due to his experience, when putting sights on rifles he makes, my bro usually has all his rifles put the first ball within 2" of the bull at 25yards.
I am sure these cape gun and DR makers are/were certainly capable of the same.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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lancaster
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Re: English Cape Gun [Re: DarylS]
      #363811 - 23/03/22 04:32 PM

when you sighted the gun on 100 yards you can calculate the the other sights - when knowing the trajectory - and this was probably what happen.
I can't imagine the boers who were penny pincher shoot game over 200 yards. the chance for a bad shoot or a miss was to big than and they don't want to waste ammo. believe the 500 yards thing was for shooting at the enemies only.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: English Cape Gun [Re: lancaster]
      #363815 - 23/03/22 06:27 PM

I have always thought of Cape guns as close in range meat collecting guns. Buck and bird.

Also good for defence of the laagered wagons.

One advantage of a cape gun. Just like a combination gun, proper regulation may not really be required. Sighting the sights in for the rifle barrel. If accurate enough, the single barrel might be accurate to whatever range a single shot might be accurate to. If the shotgun barrel is using shot, even large shot, rear sights might be mostly redundant.

If shooting ball or slugs in the shotgun barrel, of course the rear sights would be more useful if more aligned. Precise regulation would still not be needed or necessary.

So setting up the sights for the single rifle barrel would be the go. And then adjusting the shotgun smooth barrel to shoot at closer ranges close to it. IMO.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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LRF
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Reged: 28/03/11
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Loc: minnesota ,usa
Re: English Cape Gun [Re: lancaster]
      #363820 - 23/03/22 10:32 PM

Quote:

....(I) believe the 500 yards thing was for shooting at the enemies only.



I agree lancaster, I think the majority of the leaves were for sighting on 2 legged danger (which certainly character's early SA) and adds to the maxim that when confronted with a gunfight and no way out, "shoot early, shoot often"

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