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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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N320AW
.224 member


Reged: 15/08/05
Posts: 27
Loc: Georgia USA
Muzzle rise of double .577 NE. on recoil (!?)
      #36240 - 21/08/05 03:35 PM

Hi guys. What a wonderful bunch of fellows who really know their stuff.

In mid 1990's, while reading one of Guns & Ammo rifle annual editions, there was a photograph of an individual firing a double .577 NE. Guys, I wasn't on the " sauce " but the barrels of this gun, supposedly taken in full recoil, were about 60 DEGREES ABOVE THE HORIZONTAL. Two-thirds the way to straight up! Could this be? If so, how could one manage a quick second shot with a gun that behaves as such?

I have a photograph of Elmer Keith firing a Hoffman .505 Gibbs taken in full recoil. The barrel rise is about a true 30 degrees above horizontal. I could live with that and would expect such from a 10 1/2 lb. .505. John Taylor states that the muzzle rise of a .577 and .600 is about 5-6 inches! What am I to believe?

Thanks very, very much.

Art Wright


--------------------
" Nature does not care whether the hunter slays the beast or the beast the hunter She will make good compost of them both and her ends are prospered whichever succeeds. "

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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Muzzle rise of double .577 NE. on recoil (!?) [Re: N320AW]
      #36241 - 21/08/05 06:04 PM


N320AW,

A lot of the muzzle rise is dependant on the shooter.
I am talking below about 500 Nitro doubles, 5050 Gibbs and 500 Jeffrey.

If I just roll with the recoil, the barrels can get up quite high
- even rolling with the recoil I probably wouldn't see them going
past 40 / 45 degrees.

Most of the time, even in practice I hold on tight and keep them down
- 5- 10" would be normal as I almost always fire 2 shots at the DG
I am shooting at so I can't afford to let the barrels get away and loose sight
of the animal for too long.

Hope this helps.

500 Nitro

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rgp
.333 member


Reged: 17/06/04
Posts: 373
Loc: TX & VIC
Re: Muzzle rise of double .577 NE. on recoil (!?) [Re: 500Nitro]
      #36244 - 21/08/05 07:33 PM

Photographs are normally selected for publication by the artistic types working in the layout and graphics office, and the photos are frequently exaggerated to sell an image.

The publications used to run such photos with any rifle from a .375 on up, and they also did a lot of photos of that type with .44 Magnum and .454 Casull revolvers.

One that I remember well appeared in American Rifleman in the late 1970's, and showed someone "shooting" a .470 Nitro Express. The muzzle was up at a 45 to 50 degree angle...ask anyone who owns a .470 about that...

Richard.

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mickey
.416 member


Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
Re: Muzzle rise of double .577 NE. on recoil (!?) [Re: rgp]
      #36259 - 22/08/05 01:34 AM

Agree with 500Nitro. If you roll through the shot it can traise up to 45 degrees or so. If you hold on tight it is much less.

I have a video of a friend shooting an 11 pound 600NE that doesn't rise more than a couple of inches. Of course he weighs about 300 pounds and was a defensive lineman for the Seattle Seahawks.



--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Muzzle rise of double .577 NE. on recoil (!?) [Re: mickey]
      #36260 - 22/08/05 01:43 AM


Mickey,

I remeber the first time I fired a 600 Nitro - I think you've seen the rifle,
it was the 1st Jeffrey 600 Nitro - U/L Hammer.

Even though I was holding on for dear life (not having fired one before),
it still raised up 30 - 40 degrees !!!

To hold it down to a few inches is impressive - unless h was using pussy loads !!!

The 8 bores are impressive.

500 Nitro

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26998
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Muzzle rise of double .577 NE. on recoil (!?) [Re: N320AW]
      #36273 - 22/08/05 03:55 AM

Muzzle rise depends on a combination of factors. The first is shape of the stock ie: pitch, drop at the butt and weight, while the second is how it is held.
: My most accurate offhand position shooting with the .458's and even my new .375 gives a rise of a good 45 degrees and it's entirely due to how I hold the gun that causes that.
: I can hold the rifle so it barely rises, merely punching straight back, but the 'joilt' is fearsome for me, and promotes flinching. Relaxing and letting the muzzle climb, reduces back-bite and promotes accurate, first round kills - for me. Everyone must find his/her 'best' position and hold.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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clark7781
.375 member


Reged: 28/10/04
Posts: 612
Loc: Fairfax County, Virginia, USA
Re: Muzzle rise of double .577 NE. on recoil (!?) [Re: N320AW]
      #36319 - 22/08/05 10:46 PM

Here is a photo I took of Mr. Rusty doubling jjs' .470 Merkel at the DRSS hunting this past April.



As soon as we heard the pop-pop, we knew what he did.

If you want to really appreciate some recoil from "big guns" (not doubles, however), visit accuratereloading's "heros" section...

--------------------
Clark

Double Rifle Shooters Society
.500 NE and .577 NE

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Maineguide
.275 member


Reged: 09/03/05
Posts: 88
Loc: New Hampshire
Re: Muzzle rise of double .577 NE. on recoil (!?) [Re: clark7781]
      #36321 - 22/08/05 11:07 PM

Yes, I do agree with it's all how you hold it, I'm in the middle of regulating my .577 and the barrels rise about 6inches. I purposely hold the forend tight to get a quick second shot off. I'm 6' 190lbs. My range buddy is 5-11 and 265lbs. He absorbs the recoil easily but just can't run very fast.

Maineguide

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JTOMLINSON
.300 member


Reged: 16/02/05
Posts: 188
Loc: York, England
Re: Muzzle rise of double .577 NE. on recoil (!?) [Re: Maineguide]
      #36325 - 23/08/05 01:20 AM

The stock shape also has considerable bearing on the amount of muzzle flip. In recent times stock comb height has risen significantly which is conducive to use with scope sights, especially on large bore magazine rifles. These so called assymetric stocks do not lend themselves to use with iron sights and as such the use of express sights is often subordinate to the scope.

In the case of truly large bore doubles and in particular those above .500 bore express sights will often be the main method of sighting and in all probability the rifle will have sginificant drop from the nose of the comb to the heel plate. With this stock configuration muzzle flip will be accentuated and the bigger the rifle then usually the greater the flip.

Some of the latter Mark Sullivan videos in which he uses his Marcel Tyhs .600 provide a good example of the rise of the muzzle on firing. I do not know just how large a frame Mr Sullivan is, but he appears to have no great problem in soaking up the recoil.

This leads to the second variable and that is the constitution of the person pulling the trigger, a person of small stature will roll backwards more readily than will someone of larger proportions hence the muzzles will be visibly seen to rise more.

The writings of John Taylor were known at times to enhance or gloss on certain facts, so it is not possible to draw any certainty from these, in any event Taylor in writing of the .600 came out in favour of the so-called 100 grain Gordite "Jeffery" load, which generated a slightly less m.v. than the 110 grain load and one asssumes, also less felt recoil.

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N320AW
.224 member


Reged: 15/08/05
Posts: 27
Loc: Georgia USA
Re: Muzzle rise of double .577 NE. on recoil (!?) [Re: JTOMLINSON]
      #36343 - 23/08/05 12:26 PM

Yes. . . I totally agree with the ascertion that " Pondoro " DID embellish some of his writings/opinions. I am familiar with his advice to get a .600NE regulated for the 100 grain cordite load. That told me conclusively that the .600's recoil, whether 100 or 110 grains, does grab the shooters attention on tweaking the trigger.

I thank you all for your insight on this. I'll be back with another moronic question. Hey! It's a poor day when you don't learn something! "

Thanks

--------------------
" Nature does not care whether the hunter slays the beast or the beast the hunter She will make good compost of them both and her ends are prospered whichever succeeds. "

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clark7781
.375 member


Reged: 28/10/04
Posts: 612
Loc: Fairfax County, Virginia, USA
Re: Muzzle rise of double .577 NE. on recoil (!?) [Re: N320AW]
      #36370 - 23/08/05 10:21 PM

In reply to:

I'll be back with another moronic question



Don't sell yourself short. Nothing moronic with what you've been posting.

--------------------
Clark

Double Rifle Shooters Society
.500 NE and .577 NE

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26998
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Muzzle rise of double .577 NE. on recoil (!?) [Re: N320AW]
      #36378 - 24/08/05 01:19 AM

Back in the 70's Les Bauska had some Enlarged Ruger#1 cast up for making single shot .600's. Anyone have one?

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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