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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Muzzleloaders & Blackpowder
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260rem
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Taking apart a Pedersoli double?
      #362207 - 18/02/22 10:22 AM

Is there anything bad about frequently taking down a Pedersoli double rifle?

I'm interested in picking one up but I've got a thing for take downs, and a small safe for them. So would taking out that restraining key to separate the barrels from the stock cause a problem over time or are they designed to be taken down that way?

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DarylSModerator
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Re: Taking apart a Pedersoli double? [Re: 260rem]
      #362209 - 18/02/22 10:34 AM

NP - they are designed to be "taken down" for cleaning every time they are fired, if cleaned properly, thus they are designed that way.

I will also state that I take down my flintlocks (remove the barrel and lock every time I clean them, which is AFTER every time I shoot them. One has 3 pins and 2 screws holding everything together while the one with the 44" bl. has 4 pins and 3 screws as the lock is held on with 2 screws in this model of rifle. (lock screws plus the tank screw which screws from the tang into the trigger plate.

Many people do not take their long rifles apart for cleaning, but I (& my brother) maintain you cannot properly clean a muzzleloading rifle or smoothbore, without removing the barrel and lock from the stock.

With the long rifles, I leave the ram rod in the stock for extra support of this delicate part, when the barrel is removed.
Guns with hooked breeches are designed to easily be "taken apart" for cleaning. If this is necessary for storage, fine and dandy. Do not lose the barrel wedge. Many guns have a slotted & pinned wedge that is "captured" so it cannot be lost.

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260rem
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Re: Taking apart a Pedersoli double? [Re: DarylS]
      #362213 - 18/02/22 11:23 AM

I might have to grab one then.

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DarylSModerator
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Re: Taking apart a Pedersoli double? [Re: 260rem]
      #362214 - 18/02/22 11:50 AM

The .58 Kodiak I had, put both barrels into the same group at 50yards, using 100gr. 2F GOEX and .574" round balls with 10 ounce denim patches I measured at .0225" as well as with a ticking material I measured at .021".
It shot equally well with a .562" pure lead ball and both of those patches.
It shot parallel using 110gr. 2F GOEX.
It shot poorly with less as well as more powder than these four load combinations.
Some guys have not been able to get these rifles to regulate.
Now, whether than it due to them wanting to shoot only slugs, I do not know.
Mine did it with round balls.
Slugs other than Lee R.E.A.L. bullets should not be used, as there is nothing to hold them onto the powder when the other barrel is fired. If the unfired barrel's slug moves off the powder, it becomes a obstruction, not a projectile. This was the main reason slugs did not gain popularity until the advent of breech loaders, in double rifles.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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260rem
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Re: Taking apart a Pedersoli double? [Re: DarylS]
      #362216 - 18/02/22 03:15 PM

I wanted RB so it might be alright for me, I might wait and see how the brass case BP RB loads go in the shotgun and if I'm not happy with it then I might get myself one.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Taking apart a Pedersoli double? [Re: 260rem]
      #362225 - 18/02/22 11:27 PM

I leave my Pedérsoli BP ML .58 apart after shooting it and cleaning it. Easier to see if any rust forms after using boiling water and oil and grease etc. On the outside at least.

I haven't made any real effort to find a regulation load. Just one BP type and different charges behind some mini lead projectiles I bought with the rifle. Regulation is pretty much non existent. I want to try a round ball with it.

Caring for a BP ML? I think I will start a thread, we have experts on NE. A useful resource if they can share their knowledge.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

Edited by NitroX (19/02/22 01:45 AM)

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Longknife
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Re: Taking apart a Pedersoli double? [Re: NitroX]
      #362234 - 19/02/22 01:28 AM

The keyed hooked breech system was designed for taking the barrels off for cleaning and or repair. What caliber are you looking at? The 50 and 54's are pretty heavy, and the later ones have a very fast twist My son has an older .58 has a and it holds and shoots very good.... Check the twist as they changed that over the years. Daryl. what was the twist in your ,58?

--------------------
Longknife

Edited by Longknife (19/02/22 01:37 AM)

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85lc
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Re: Taking apart a Pedersoli double? [Re: Longknife]
      #362242 - 19/02/22 03:35 AM

There was a great article in the Spring 2002 DGJ about the Kodiak 58 cal DR. The author did a safari in Africa with his Kodiak and had a tremendous time. If I can figure out how to post it, I will do so.

I had a Kodiak 58 cal. The only complaint I had was the bedding which I corrected with a little glass epoxy. I found it a fun gun to shoot. I used the 505 gr TC MaxiBalls & Hornady conicals with 120 gr 2F. The gun was great fun to shoot.

As others have said, the gun is intended to be taken apart for cleaning.

--------------------
RB

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DarylSModerator
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Re: Taking apart a Pedersoli double? [Re: 85lc]
      #362262 - 19/02/22 07:14 AM

Seems to me, the twist was either 48" or 56", Ed. I'm thinking it was 48".

NitroX - please don't use hot water for cleaning. It is not necessary.
Even H&H recommends cold (tepid) water for cleaning black powder fouling in all muzzleloaders & breech loaders.
After cleaning, pumping water in and out of the tubes (with the breeches with nipples removed) in a container of water, remove, wipe down the outside, dry the inside with cloth patches - usually takes 3 or 4, then oil. In a fairly dry climate, a WD40 flush is all that is necessary after drying. This will chase any residual moisture from the breech. With a dry patch, blast the excess out the nipple seats/breech, then wipe down the outside with that patch - done.
Hot water and especially boiling hot water causes flash-rusting - the flash rusting is accumulative & will eventually cause pitting, one end to the other of the bores.

Trying to find a good load with patched round balls in tubes that are finely pitted is a tough job.
Proper crowning of the muzzles is quite important with round ball and patch loads. A smoothly radiused crown allows loading combinations that require no cleaning between shots, as a tight enough combination can easily be loaded, that cleans the last shot, as you load the next.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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85lc
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Re: Taking apart a Pedersoli double? [Re: DarylS]
      #362271 - 19/02/22 09:26 AM

The twist is 1/48 which allows shooting conicals,

--------------------
RB

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DarylSModerator
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Re: Taking apart a Pedersoli double? [Re: 85lc]
      #362272 - 19/02/22 09:31 AM

The only trouble with conicals in a 48" twist, is they are instantly unstable upon impact and do not travel in a straight line after impact.
This was proven on moose in BC. Due to the almost exclusive use of slugs in 48" twist rifles up to .54 calibre, the game branch got the
idea a muzzleloader could not kill a moose.
48" twist was ALWAYS a round ball twist & was used in virtually ALL Hawken rifles made in St. Louis.
That it would stabilize short slugs was blown out of proportion by TC with their button rifled barrels. All advertising hype to sell rifles.
Those guns did not have rifling suitable to patched round balls due to the shallow depth of it, ranging, actually measured by ME, from 1 1/2 thou. to 4 thou depth.
The rate of twist was too slow to stabilize a bullet after impact. They even turned up to 90 degrees on impact. Yeah- they're GREAT!

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260rem
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Re: Taking apart a Pedersoli double? [Re: Longknife]
      #362281 - 19/02/22 11:16 AM

Quote:

The keyed hooked breech system was designed for taking the barrels off for cleaning and or repair. What caliber are you looking at? The 50 and 54's are pretty heavy, and the later ones have a very fast twist My son has an older .58 has a and it holds and shoots very good.... Check the twist as they changed that over the years. Daryl. what was the twist in your ,58?



I was looking at a real man's one, the safari express 720, with a set of 10ga barrels.
I shot some geese with a 10ga smoke pole and really enjoyed it and I think the 720 would be better for the local Sambar then a 58 or similar would.
That and I love hunting big game with a 12ga so it suits my tastes.

--------------------
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DarylSModerator
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Re: Taking apart a Pedersoli double? [Re: 260rem]
      #362291 - 19/02/22 01:06 PM

One lad on here got his .72 working with 175gr. of T7, seems to me, using some form of slug.

I would be attempting to get it to work with patched round balls.
The muzzles need to be re-crowned as they are merely machine cut, so have sharp corners.
Your thumb and emery of wet/dry paper on the end of your thumb, rotating and then every 15 seconds or so of rotating your thumb, rotate the barrels 180 degrees to keep your 'smoothing' concentric.
It's easy. If you need or want to see what they should look like, PM me your e-mail and I'll send a couple pictures.
The smoothed and rounded crown allows the use of snug loads that not only shoot better, but also allow using loads that do not require frequent cleaning while you are shooting.
Real Neetsfoot Oil works as a patch lube for hunting. Never use a water soluble oil for hunting nor for storage.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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260rem
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Re: Taking apart a Pedersoli double? [Re: DarylS]
      #362308 - 19/02/22 03:55 PM

I actually like to use valve grinning paste on a round headed brass bolt to do my crowns.
I've cut a few barrels down and done this to good effect, with the bolt in a cordless drill.
Not a lot of pressure is needed to remove rough edges and it celf centres itself.

--------------------
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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Taking apart a Pedersoli double? [Re: 260rem]
      #362318 - 19/02/22 08:01 PM

I wanted a .72. But came across a second hand .58 at a good price at the Green River Rifle Works. Since closed.

The .58 will do for practice in the meantime ...

I will get a .72 one day ... With 10-bore ML shotgun barrels as well.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

Edited by NitroX (19/02/22 09:48 PM)

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260rem
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Re: Taking apart a Pedersoli double? [Re: NitroX]
      #362329 - 19/02/22 09:36 PM

I'm just a huge 12 bore fan, I love hunting with them there's no other single calibre gun that is perfect for such a wide variety of game.
I guess that mentally affects my decision making in this too.

--------------------
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Ripp
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Re: Taking apart a Pedersoli double? [Re: 85lc]
      #362348 - 20/02/22 02:31 AM

Quote:

There was a great article in the Spring 2002 DGJ about the Kodiak 58 cal DR. The author did a safari in Africa with his Kodiak and had a tremendous time. If I can figure out how to post it, I will do so.

I had a Kodiak 58 cal. The only complaint I had was the bedding which I corrected with a little glass epoxy. I found it a fun gun to shoot. I used the 505 gr TC MaxiBalls & Hornady conicals with 120 gr 2F. The gun was great fun to shoot.

As others have said, the gun is intended to be taken apart for cleaning.



Think I remember reading that article..

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

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DarylSModerator
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Re: Taking apart a Pedersoli double? [Re: 260rem]
      #362359 - 20/02/22 03:37 AM

Quote:

I actually like to use valve grinning paste on a round headed brass bolt to do my crowns.
I've cut a few barrels down and done this to good effect, with the bolt in a cordless drill.
Not a lot of pressure is needed to remove rough edges and it celf centres itself.



A brass bolt will not give the entrance into the bore, the gentle angle and polish that is needed to seat a patched ball into the muzzle.
If you were shooting a slug like the .58 Lee R.E.A.L. bullet, the bolt-lapped crown would work just fine, but not for seating a snug ball
and patch.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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85lc
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Re: Taking apart a Pedersoli double? [Re: DarylS]
      #362375 - 20/02/22 10:57 AM

A 58 cal roundball is certainly a good hunting and target projectile. When I sold my 58 Kodiak, the buyer said that is all he planned to use.

However, I wouldn't discount using conical bullets. Ira Lewis used his 58 Kodiak in Africa, shooting conical bullets and killing large, thin shin game like kudu. He used 140 gr 2F Goex. If you send me your email address, I will send you his article from DGJ.

I predominately shot conical bullets in my 58 cal Kodiak with 120 gr (4.5 drams) 2F and had no problem with bullet performance, even on a front shot on a deer. Remember that 505 to 550 gr conicals are fairly short. Also some 577 2 3/4" BPE were rifled with a 1/48" twist rate. I believe the Sniders used a 1/72: twist with a 480 gr conical.

I have read that the best twist rate for a 58 cal roundball muzzleloader is 1/72" with rifles being rifles as fast as 1/66?" to 1/90".

The 1/48" is listed as a compromise twist to stabilize short conical bullets.

From what I have read, this faster twist rate in a 58 cal barrel requires a lower powder charge to prevent round balls from stripping. . That is, one can use a much heavier powder charge with a slower twist barrel. Also from my reading, smaller calibers tolerate faster twist rates. Colerain barrels recommends the following twist rates for round balls.

1 in 48” twist for .36 and .40 calibers.
1 in 56” for .45 thru .58 calibers.
1 in 66” for the .62 caliber.

Concerning powder charges, I believe Pedesoli recommends like a 80ngr charge (or there abouts). That seemed low to me, more like a round ball load. I used 4.5 drams (about 120 gr). The Lewis article said he used 140 gr which is slightly over 5 drams which seems like a reasonable load.

It is correct that the original Hawkins machinery is set for a 1/48" twist. I read that the Hawkins rifles were predominately 52 caliber.

I guess closing thoughts are to use round ball if you prefer. If greater penetration is needed, try conical bullets backed by a stiff powder charge. Of course, the rifle will tell what loads it likes by how well it groups the loads at 50 to 75 yds.

--------------------
RB

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DarylSModerator
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Re: Taking apart a Pedersoli double? [Re: 85lc]
      #362380 - 20/02/22 11:47 AM

My Kodiak had roughly .008" deep rifling. Impossible to "strip" with the loads that actually regulated.
The fellow I bought the rifle from had tried a number of different slugs with different powder charges and couldn't get holes within a foot at 50yards. THAT is why they have 2 sights, one for each barrel. LOL What a farce!
I was just lucky mine would regulated with both 100gr. 2F and 110gr. 2F. As this was 20gr. of powder less than I wanted to use for moose and big bears, I sold it.
Fine deer rifle, though.
If all I did was shoot from a stand, even the 85gr. 2f charge might have been enough.

Where I live and hunt, you might get a shot closer than 25 yards, or your only chance that fall might come at 200yards.
I did not feel enough confidence in the rifle.

Slugs only work well, if the gun will shoot them well enough(and they don't move off the powder).

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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85lc
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Re: Taking apart a Pedersoli double? [Re: DarylS]
      #362419 - 21/02/22 04:50 AM

Regulation is the major problem with Pedosoli Kodiaks. I have talked to several former owners who had 50s and 54s that would not regulate. They were using round balls. They were fairly disgusted with their rifles.

When the rifles were initially imported, some gun scribes claimed that the duel sights were intended to be used, one with each barrel. The rifle I bought had tandem sights which practically precluded using a sight for each barrel. Can you imagine dropping the front sight and raising the rear sight while hunting?

Luckily my Kodiak was fairly regulated with conicals. I only shot round balls a couple of times and don't remember how well it shot with RBs.

I wrote to Pedosoli to get replacement nipples and asked about the two sights. I was told the dual sights were for different ranges. It would have made more sense and frankly looked better to have used traditional express sights.

I read that Pedosoli claimed it would reregulate a gun that was not regulate. However, one article stated that the returned rife was still not regulated.

I sold my Pedosoli because I found a very nice looking Barnes (London) 64 cal (uses a .62 RB) percussion double rifle that was significantly nicer looking than the Kodiak. The Barnes shoots nice groups at 75 yds, using round balls pushed by 3 drams of 2F.

From my experience with my Kodiak and talking to others that had these rifles, some of the Kodiaks are good, very stout hunting rifles. However, regulation and accuracy with the intended loads is a potential problem. Perhaps it would be best to shoot a Kodiak before buying.

--------------------
RB

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DarylSModerator
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Re: Taking apart a Pedersoli double? [Re: 85lc]
      #362425 - 21/02/22 06:52 AM

I forgot to mention. I removed a 1 pound bar of lead from the hole in the butt, hidden by the butt plate.
This made the gun much easier to handle.
I really enjoyed the rights, then lefts, on the steel plates on our trail walk, right out to 109yards (100metres).
Mine regulated with 100grs. and 110grs.2F
This one is quite new, and has a single peep sight. The regulation is quite good.
I see he's shooting the TC Maxiball - a very poor design for hunting large game.(larger than NA deer, for expample)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YCTBsVz-MQs

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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