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The article might have been slightly more relevant if he had written it as the six Double Rifle cartridges and the six Bolt Rifle cartridges. I would bet that less than 5% of hunters going after DG in Africa are using Doubles.

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I am very aware of all that John. I spend 11 months in three African countries many years ago and I was in an among elephants dozens of times. But in most cases if the elephants got wind of us they moved off quickly.
No so a cow moose if it has a calf. The don't run from you if you surprise them very often.
And as I said (go back and read) if either of them turn on a hunter or hiker the result is far more likely the elephant will kill the man then the moose. But in my experience (near a year in Africa and 50+ years in the western Rocky's) the moose is the one that is a LOT more likely to attack.

In the last 30 years I have run into 4 grizzlies at under 15 feet when out in the mountains and all of them ran. But I have had to dodge 5 moose. One of which was VERY intent on trying to stomp me. I never had to dodge an elephant, even though I was within 7-10 yards of them, probably 10 times.

This in no way would qualify me as an "expert" on the comparison, but that's not the reason for the post I made.

The reason for my post it to bring a bit of light on what is called "dangerous game" because that was how the article was addressed, and also to bring some thought on the "best" cartridge for use when in danger. The "best" one is the one that saves you if you have to shoot to stay alive.

I don't give a lot of weight to "the best" cartridge but I do give consideration to the use of a firearm and what bullets I'd prefer. The cartridges I have depended on the most for VERY dangerous situations in my life (from about 20 years old until about 35 years old) were not anything special. 7.62 NATO and 45 ACP, and in 2 cases a 41 magnum.

In my 11 months in Africa I used a Mauser quite a few times chambered in 404 Jeffery. Ammo was some old Kynoch, but more RWS stuff made in the 70s. Never had any problems with either one, but the British ammo was loaded about 200 FPS slower then the German ammo if I recall correctly.

I never had ANY opportunity to use other guns or cartridges at all, and I never felt any deficiency at all either. So if I would have had a bunch of guns to choose from I doubt I would have changed. I never saw anything wrong what what I had.

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My experiences with elephant have been different than yours Steve. I believe one of the biggest reasons is all the poaching going on in the area.. the elephants see man and are pissed. The last time I hunted with the late Ian Gibson (who was killed by an elephant BTW) we were hunting tuskless. We came into a small herd that, once they saw us, instantly became very agitated.. they ran towards us to within 40 to 50 yards, perhaps a bit more, grabbing small trees out of the ground and throwing them at us with their trunks.. I know, I know, the weren't "touching" us, but, had we made a play on them, Ian figured we would have had to take out the entire herd to get back out of there alive..

Same trip, hiking into a hyena blind one morning in the dark..Tuskless cow charged us out of the brush..we both flipped on our flashlights and backed up with our rifles pointed at her head..yelling and shouting until she finally stopped at 8 yards..

Same trip, hiking , we came across a younger elephant bull..he turned and started walking very briskly our direction.. we started to split up and run.. he also started to move faster after us.. after about 100 yards or so, Ian and I stopped..he as still coming and getting closer.. we took off again.. ran ..stopped and turned around.. still coming and even closer..we finally shot..which stopped him.. he paused for a bit..turned and finally walked away..

Same trip.. had a younger bull come at our vehicle one morning .. we sped up and so did he.. we sped up even more and so did he.. we was very close before we finally out ran him by picking up the speed..

I too have run into bears... black and grizzly as well as moose..bulls and cows.. fully agree with you, cow moose can be VERY aggressive.. fortunately I have never been charged by one, however my father in law played ring around the rosie with a cow one day for about 10 minutes...chasing him around a tree..he finally pulled a 44 and fired a shot over her head.. he stopped and walked away.. as he was walking from the tree, she turned and saw him walking from the protection of the tree..she gave chase again.. and did the same thing for another 5 minutes or so..he again fired another shot ..this time she turned and trotted off.. WE were in camp wondering what he was shooting at..

Bottom line..they both are and can be very dangerous.. having said that, my most hair raising experiences have been with elephant.. I have had 3 individuals I have either hunted with or had met that have all killed by elephant.. I have 0 individuals who have died from moose..

Agree, articles that say "best" of anything automatically are a turn off.. best is as you stated, the one in your hands at the time you needed it..

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ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

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Moose and Elg attacks for Steve!

https://fb.watch/aW96EpI9WW/

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I watched in horror a few years back as an elderly gentleman (my age) ..actually he looked to be in late 70's early 80's.. fell outside a post office in Alaska.. a moose was outside.. the moose stomped him to death.. felt absolutely horrible for that old guy...

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ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

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About these sorts of articles. They are bread and butter for forums and social media to argue and pontificate about. I am sure some authors write seriously. But if they were a tv advert they would have an actor with an annoying voice. For attention and remembrance.

Always different newbies vs experienced persons reading. Many articles are good value for a newbie sponge.

NE scares a lot of newcomers. So much knowledge and experience among our members it is amazing.

I saw another thread on Farcebook, "which is better, .30-06 0r a .300 mag?". A big advance on "which is better, a .308 or a .30-06?"

So really, it is a huge improvement, should a .404 or a .416 or a .375 should be included on a dangerous game rifle list. Btw my answer is yes, all three absolutely.

(PS I said that last paragraph in a squeaky annoyingly remembers or high pitched voice. )

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I read and usually don't respond to a lot of what I see/read on Farcebook.. However there are times its so blatantly wrong I cant help myself and responds.. makes me chuckle when you hit them with a few facts they cant respond to.. Last week a guy was giving his opinion on caliber and bullet type for hunting elk.. I responded asking him how many elk he had taken and if he had any photos of them..Shocker I know, he responded saying he had never actually taken an elk, all he had stated was from articles he had read.. Imagine that.,,,

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ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

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Elephant can be different due to hunting or poaching pressure.

Some of the stories I mentioned came from Ambroselli. A park. Elephant there relatively unharrassed. And more so used to humans. Also Addo. One bull in Addo was in must. Every bull seems to be leaking in the Zambezi Valley ...

One elephant in Zambia on the Zambezi the camp PH said must be insane. He or she loved to hunt humans, playing cat and mouse with them among the buildings. They wondered what would result if it ever caught someone.

A big factor on dangerousness is moose are relatively easy to kill. Elephant far less so. Yes brain shots shop them well. I've never had to do one on a charging ele.

Back to calm Addo. I remember our vehicle was chased by an angry elephant running after he for a long distance on the road/track.

I also remember how annoyed I was when the little scaredy cat tourists demanded we drive a lot faster to "get away" destroying my video opportunity. I am thoroughly sick of pathetic people on tourist safaris either being scared of the big mean buffalo and wanting to get away from them, dive faster, get away, or screaming with sudden delight everytime they see animals close causing the previously undisturbed beasts to run away and cause more arse photographs ...

Hopefully the vaxes can fill the herds ....

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Why is that about the Zambezi bulls?? I noticed the same thing.. they were all leaking it seemed..

The tuskless I shot was a brain shot at 16 yards with Ian.... he cautioned us to remain totally still after the shot to stay hidden from the others.. stated if they spotted us we most likely would have to shoot our way out of it.. Actually was one of the most fun hunts of my lifetime.. more exciting than buffalo and lion honestly..

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Not just bulls. The cow herds are very aggressive and dangerous. Especially when one was shot. The herd does not necessarily flee. They protect the downed cow. They came at us at least six times. But never the last few metres. The PH said finally that someone was going to get killed and decided we would come back the next morning. He warned local villagers to stay away as well.

Why are they aggressive?

It's simple. Massive human encroachment. They constantly have humans interfering with them. Too many elephant. Too many people. People entering the parks to cut grass and thatch. Cutting firewood. Collecting food and poaching with snares and other weapons. Even Dhanbad/farming in the parks. And the parks are artificial boundaries anyway. Elephants feed and raid outside the parks regularly.

The must on every bull is evidence the elephants are in constant combat mode.

For me, for elephant the best would be a .577 NE, a .500 NE, or a .500 Jeffery or .505 Gibbs. Thumping knockdown power if a brain is missed on a charging beast. Hopefully knock down power!

Next my own level, a .450 NE, and all the equivalent NEs. The bolt versions such as the .450 Lott, Rigby etc.

Then the .400s to .425. Rimmed or bolt rimless.

Each of these are a big step down, .577 to .500s, to .450s, to .400s. Getting lesser each step. Lastly the .375s and 9.3s.Compromise in between DG and medium game. In experienced hands will do the job. In newbie hands may not cause flinching.

There is good reasons those big brown bears are often hunted with .375s and .416s. I have never hunted bear so am quoting from what others have said!

But I have always thought a .338 a good choice for North America as a compromise. Just like the .318 WR (.330) was good for Africa.Heavy 250 gr has a high SD and penetration. Not necessarily needed for medium game. But handy. A .330/.338 and a .450 makes an excellent combination. As both Bell and ? (I forget ATM) advised.

There is a difference between dangerous game and game that can become dangerous. Elephant IS dangerous game. Buffalo is DG. Brown Bear is DG. Moose, sable. Bushbuck. etc can become dangerous in the right circumstances. Per reports. Same with elephant, buffalo etc. Often run away. Usually do. Other times don't.

I need lots more experience hunting them all!

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John aka NitroX

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Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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Why is that about the Zambezi bulls?? I noticed the same thing.. they were all leaking it seemed..

The tuskless I shot was a brain shot at 16 yards with Ian.... he cautioned us to remain totally still after the shot to stay hidden from the others.. stated if they spotted us we most likely would have to shoot our way out of it.. Actually was one of the most fun hunts of my lifetime.. more exciting than buffalo and lion honestly..

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Not just bulls. The cow herds are very aggressive and dangerous. Especially when one was shot. The herd does not necessarily flee. They protect the downed cow. They came at us at least six times. But never the last few metres. The PH said finally that someone was going to get killed and decided we would come back the next morning. He warned local villagers to stay away as well.

Why are they aggressive?

It's simple. Massive human encroachment. They constantly have humans interfering with them. Too many elephant. Too many people. People entering the parks to cut grass and thatch. Cutting firewood. Collecting food and poaching with snares and other weapons. Even Dhanbad/farming in the parks. And the parks are artificial boundaries anyway. Elephants feed and raid outside the parks regularly.

The must on every bull is evidence the elephants are in constant combat mode.

For me, for elephant the best would be a .577 NE, a .500 NE, or a .500 Jeffery or .505 Gibbs. Thumping knockdown power if a brain is missed on a charging beast. Hopefully knock down power!

Next my own level, a .450 NE, and all the equivalent NEs. The bolt versions such as the .450 Lott, Rigby etc.

Then the .400s to .425. Rimmed or bolt rimless.

Each of these are a big step down, .577 to .500s, to .450s, to .400s. Getting lesser each step. Lastly the .375s and 9.3s.Compromise in between DG and medium game. In experienced hands will do the job. In newbie hands may not cause flinching.

There is good reasons those big brown bears are often hunted with .375s and .416s. I have never hunted bear so am quoting from what others have said!

But I have always thought a .338 a good choice for North America as a compromise. Just like the .318 WR (.330) was good for Africa.Heavy 250 gr has a high SD and penetration. Not necessarily needed for medium game. But handy. A .330/.338 and a .450 makes an excellent combination. As both Bell and ? (I forget ATM) advised.

There is a difference between dangerous game and game that can become dangerous. Elephant IS dangerous game. Buffalo is DG. Brown Bear is DG. Moose, sable. Bushbuck. etc can become dangerous in the right circumstances. Per reports. Same with elephant, buffalo etc. Often run away. Usually do. Other times don't.

I need lots more experience hunting them all!

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Agree with most you have stated.. for me for elephant in a double.. would be a W/R in .577 or 500 Nitro.. perfect double..have shot them both.. incredible weapons..


And yes, the cows can be and are very dangerous in Zim.. how you described is exactly how it went down when I shot mine.. the entire group started looking for us, smelling the air.. be backed out a ways..finally they moved on.. would have gotten really interesting had a second shot be needed.


As to 338's..I have a Rem action custom in 338RUM.. have only used it on elk and now 1 bison.. Honestly I would have no issues hunting any animal in the world with that caliber and correct bullets of course..Frankly I'd choose that over a 375H&H any day for hunting the world..

Also have a 338 Lapua in Sako TRG-42..so, not very much a hunting rifle..

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ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

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For me, for elephant the best would be a .577 NE, a .500 NE, or a .500 Jeffery or .505 Gibbs. Thumping knockdown power if a brain is missed on a charging beast. Hopefully knock down power!

Next my own level, a .450 NE, and all the equivalent NEs. The bolt versions such as the .450 Lott, Rigby etc.

Then the .400s to .425. Rimmed or bolt rimless.

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Agree with most you have stated.. for me for elephant in a double.. would be a W/R in .577 or 500 Nitro.. perfect double..have shot them both.. incredible weapons..

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I'm going to add the .600 NE to the list. Shot one again recently.

A .577 3" NE or a .600 NE? Would have to shoot them side by side to see which I prefer. One of each? One has to have fantasies.

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John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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