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Rolf
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Reged: 26/02/07
Posts: 402
Loc: Germany, Bavaria
Question for 22-250 Rem standard or Ackley Improved version
      #360250 - 10/01/22 05:54 AM

Gentlemen,

first of all: best wishes for a good year 2022!

I have some questions regarding a rifle in 22-250 Rem and would kindly ask the forum members for their opinion about a possible reaming / conversion of a custom rifle

existing rifle:
modified Sauer 80 action (Stützklappenverschluss = locking mechanism via protuding latches)
caliber: 22-250 Rem.
barrel with signature "Ritterbusch / Kaufbeuren" (a custom gunsmith in south Germany, now retired, famous for 416 Rigby and other big game rifles)
barrel length: 71.5 centimeters / ca. 28 inches
barrel dia.: ca. 18.5mm/ 0.75" at the muzzle, heavy barrel version
twist: 1: 14"
scope: Leupold 16x fixed, fine crosshair
shots fired: between 150 and 200 shots fired, rifle was bought and used by a long range fox hunter

Topics:
A) the barrel length is too long for me/unbalanced, 65cm/26" or even 61cm/24" should be enough ?

B) I read in Nosler reloading manual that the case stretching of the standard 22-250 case is much worse than the 22-250 Ackley improved version.

What do you think about reaming the chamber to 22-250 Ackley improved and shortening the barrel to 25"?
Both modifications will require the rifle to be proof tested again.

best regards
Rolf

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DarylS
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Re: Question for 22-250 Rem standard or Ackley Improved version [Re: Rolf]
      #360254 - 10/01/22 06:27 AM

Hi Rolf. I've loaded .22-250's since the late 1960's, on and off for many years. I've never had a problem with case stretching, but will say, that the straightened case will likely stretch less. IIRC, I trimmed cases every 6 or 7 firings, to .010" shorten than max. The last .22-250 I had, I sold a few years back and was a Remington that did not shoot well enough to suit me. I had loaded that brass only a few times, so didn't have to trim it. A 25" or 26" bl. will work just fine for this round and deliver top speeds, as in 3,900fps with 50gr. bullets, maybe 4,000fps. In the Improved case, these speeds would likely be 100fps to 150fps higher.
I have liked all of my Ackley IMP. chamberings over the years, so if you like them too, then you will be happy with the .22-250IMP as well.
I don't understand why re-proofing is necessary for merely shortening a barrel, but I guess if that "back" has to be scratched, so be it.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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93x64mm
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Re: Question for 22-250 Rem standard or Ackley Improved version [Re: DarylS]
      #360257 - 10/01/22 07:50 AM

There would be a few questions for you to ask yourself Rolf.
Firstly, what do you what to do with the rifle, what game do you intend to take?
Will it be long range work from a vantage point or stalking game?
What projectiles do you intend to use & will the existing twist be okay to do so. 1:14 is slower than the normal 1:12 so only lighter projectile could really be used
As to why old mate got rid of his rig in 150-200 rounds may be another call to ask, but I'd reckon he was going for every bit of speed he could & use them like a grenade inside a fox; a lot of hunters down South used to do the same thing until the fur market dried up due to all the Greenies!
The last thing I'd like to see is the grouping on this rifle or give it a go yourself if possible!
If it all stacks up your way & its the rifle for you mate then getting it docked & rechambered will still be another issue, but it'll be what you want!
Got to have the right spanner for the right nut hey!
All the best for 2022 mate, hope you have a win.
Cheers
93x64mm

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: Question for 22-250 Rem standard or Ackley Improved version [Re: Rolf]
      #360263 - 10/01/22 10:26 AM

Rolf, Happy New Year. Wonderful to hear from you. Was thinking about sending a HNY email.

I loaded for my brother in law's .22/250. He didn't and doesn't use it much. I think it has a 600mm 24 inch barrel. A 25 to 26 inch barrel seems adequate.

I don't know about the twist rate.

The standard .22/250 case is fine in my opinion.

What do you hope to use it on?

Here, the .22/250 is a fine kangaroo choice, feral goats and the usual sized Southern feral pigs. Imo too damaging on Fox furs but good for extermination. Also far too damaging for hares and rabbits if the meat is desired.

With a slower twist and heavier bullets would work reasonably well on lighter deer.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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Rolf
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Reged: 26/02/07
Posts: 402
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Re: Question for 22-250 Rem standard or Ackley Improved version [Re: NitroX]
      #360911 - 23/01/22 12:14 AM

Gentlemen,

thank you very much for your thoughts an information about the rifle/cartridge!

One purpose for which I regard this rifle as ideal is varminting, the long range (200m plus) shot at young summmer foxes in long fields from a "hochsitz" or crows from a blind

I will try 55grs bullets (according to the books max for the 1:14" twist) like
- Sierra 55grs SPBT Gameking as a cheap test bullet
- 55grs Ballistic Tip, V-Max and maybe Berger HP Varmint Flat Base for best accuracy and for varmints

Powder will be Kemira N140.

If the reloadings bring sub-moa accuracy (I hope for less than 20mm for 4 shots at 100m) I will go hunting in June for foxes and assess the kind of damage this combination will do on these 5-8kg animals.
After some experience I will assess the "need" for a AI improved version and the related costs and hassles.

This cartridge in either version seems not sensible for roe deer, I expect much meat damage on short distances and lack of penetration on medium ranges, even not with these varmint bullets.

Again, thank you very much and have a nice day!

best regards
Rolf

@John: Did you have any experiences (or hopefully success?) with the 8mm and 9,5mm Mannlicher Schönauers?

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Ripp
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Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA
Re: Question for 22-250 Rem standard or Ackley Improved version [Re: Rolf]
      #360916 - 23/01/22 01:33 AM

Hello Rolf and yes, Happy New Year..

I use a 22-250 all year around as one of my truck guns.. works perfectly on coyotes, pronghorn, mule deer, or anything else I need to take care of on the ranch including badgers and priarie dogs if I get to an area that has the p-dogs..Its a great caliber in my opinion..

As Daryl stated I have never had an issue with excessive case stretching..

As to barrel length, 24" is more than adequate and frankly with the small powder charge, you could get by with a 20 or 22 in my opinion and give up very little in terms of muzzle velocity.. especially with a 22".. I have 24" on 2 of the 3 I own..Two I have are sythetic Tikka's..both shoot great with factory ammo.. I had purchased 5 cases of it 2 years before the ammo shortage started...again, I use this caliber a lot on the ranch.. I have another that is a heavy barreled Remington Sendero with a 26" barrel..use that for longer varmint hunting..however I like the the handier 24" over the 26"for carrying..and loss of speed is less than 80fps between the 2" less barrels..


My son shot his first mule deer with one this fall.. One shot with a 55 gr bullet at 234 yds.. deer took 3 steps and tipped over dead.. Just shot a coyote on the ranch last weekend with my kids, calling him in early on a Sunday morning..

If you went with the shorter barrel and installed a suppressor to eliminate noise, you would have a great fox gun or any other varmint you may choose to go after..

Hope this helps..

Ripp

Edited by Ripp (23/01/22 02:20 PM)

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: Question for 22-250 Rem standard or Ackley Improved version [Re: Ripp]
      #360919 - 23/01/22 01:47 AM

Hi Rolf, 55 gr and 60 gr decent projectiles with kill roe deer well with lung shots.

I used to use Nosler solid bases in .22 centrefires. For feral goats and similar.

I think you can get .224 Nosler Partition style bullets in Europe. Not sure of the brand? Used some in a Frankinia 5?6x50mm Rimmed and .22 mag U/O double rifle. 55gr partitions.

For foxes I used to use 45 gr Hornady SPs in my .222. To minimise fur damage.

I have been buying loaded 50 gr and 55 gr loaded ammo in recent times. For foxes I would probably look for a 40 gr to 50 gr projectile of fragile construction.

A .22/250 probably will only work with side on head shots if minimising the damage.

Good luck.

Will send a PM.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

Edited by NitroX (23/01/22 01:49 AM)

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Ripp
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Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA
Re: Question for 22-250 Rem standard or Ackley Improved version [Re: Rolf]
      #360921 - 23/01/22 02:18 AM

Quote:

Gentlemen,

thank you very much for your thoughts an information about the rifle/cartridge!

One purpose for which I regard this rifle as ideal is varminting, the long range (200m plus) shot at young summmer foxes in long fields from a "hochsitz" or crows from a blind

I will try 55grs bullets (according to the books max for the 1:14" twist) like
- Sierra 55grs SPBT Gameking as a cheap test bullet
- 55grs Ballistic Tip, V-Max and maybe Berger HP Varmint Flat Base for best accuracy and for varmints
.

This cartridge in either version seems not sensible for roe deer, I expect much meat damage on short distances and lack of penetration on medium ranges, even not with these varmint bullets.

Again, thank you very much and have a nice day!

best regards
Rolf

@John: Did you have any experiences (or hopefully success?) with the 8mm and 9,5mm Mannlicher Schönauers?



IF you used a hard bullet.. such as a Barnes or even a Swift, damage to meat and hide would be greatly reduced.. We had a 50gr Nosler Ballistic tip ( explosive) when my son shot the mule deer, which are bigger than Roe. Bullet made about a 1" sized hole on entry, exploded the lungs and lodged against the ribs on the off side .. very little damage to carcass..

https://www.barnesbullets.com/product/tsx/

https://www.swiftbullets.com/pages/bullets

These would also work great on Roe Deer
https://www.federalpremium.com/rifle/premium-centerfire-rifle/


Thx
Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

Edited by Ripp (23/01/22 02:20 AM)

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260rem
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Re: Question for 22-250 Rem standard or Ackley Improved version [Re: Ripp]
      #360943 - 23/01/22 10:49 AM

That barrel is definitely on the long side, I'd cut it to 26" as I find that's where the 22/250 gets its best performance.
I wouldn't bother with the improved case, the regular isn't any worse then the 308win is.

--------------------
One shot is all you need.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: Question for 22-250 Rem standard or Ackley Improved version [Re: 260rem]
      #360950 - 23/01/22 04:42 PM

Nosler makes a 60 gr partition. I would try those on roe deer.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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Ripp
.577 member


Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA
Re: Question for 22-250 Rem standard or Ackley Improved version [Re: NitroX]
      #360952 - 23/01/22 05:51 PM

.22-250

History

https://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowledgebase/.22-250.html

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

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Rolf
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Reged: 26/02/07
Posts: 402
Loc: Germany, Bavaria
Re: Question for 22-250 Rem standard or Ackley Improved version [Re: Ripp]
      #360969 - 24/01/22 04:31 AM

Gentlemen,

thank you again for the comments, your experience and the practical advice!

- the 60grs Partition sounds promising, I will try to obtain some for tests.

- PPU (Prvi Partisan) ammunition for this caliber is currently offered in egun for 79 Euros (ca. 95 US $) for 100 cartridges, loaded with a 55grs standard soft point.
Does anybody have first-hand experience with this load concerning precision and effect on game ?

best regards
Rolf

PS: If anybody of you is interested in a roe deer hunt in Bavaria/Germany this year, please send me a PM.

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85lc
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Reged: 19/01/18
Posts: 1031
Loc: Georgia, USA
Re: Question for 22-250 Rem standard or Ackley Improved version [Re: Rolf]
      #360971 - 24/01/22 05:42 AM

Ripp,

Thank you, That is a nice writeup on the history of the 22/250.

While off the subject, there was a mention of a 22 Newton which I understand is about 1/4" longer than the 22/250 and was intended for 90 gr bullets (0/228" dia.) which with modern powder could be an interesting long range cartridge. I saw that cartridge cases are available at https://www.ammunitionartifacts.com/unitedstatescartridgecases/22-newton

--------------------
RB

Edited by NitroX (25/01/22 04:51 PM)

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Ripp
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Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA
Re: Question for 22-250 Rem standard or Ackley Improved version [Re: 85lc]
      #361017 - 25/01/22 05:32 AM

Quote:

Ripp,

Thank you, That is a nice writeup on the history of the 22/250.

While off the subject, there was a mention of a 22 Newton which I understand is about 1/4" longer than the 22/250 and was intended for 90 gr bullets (0/228" dia.) which with modern powder could be an interesting long range cartridge. I saw that cartridge cases are available at https://www.ammunitionartifacts.com/unitedstatescartridgecases/22-newton



Its giving me a "unknown page" error when I click on it??

I like the fast little varmint cartridges.. especially for prairie dogs and coyotes.. but work well on game much larger.. I know of 2 ranchers in my area that use 22 Swifts for elk.. Yes, I can hear the wailing now from some.. so be it.. have seen it used.. all neck or head shots.. 1 shot and done..

As with any caliber, shot placement and bullet design are a huge part of the formula..

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

Edited by NitroX (25/01/22 05:39 PM)

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85lc
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Reged: 19/01/18
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Re: Question for 22-250 Rem standard or Ackley Improved version [Re: Ripp]
      #361022 - 25/01/22 10:06 AM

This is the webpage that referenced (Pictured didn't come thru but the verbiage is there).:

Ammunition Artifacts
Custom Cartridge Cases

United States Cartridge Cases22 NEWTON
22 Newton
22 Newton Arms Company
22 NEWTON
75.00
Quantity 20,

All Cases Have Been Fully Formed From New PPU 25/06 Brass, Each Has Been Annealed 2x, Formed, Trimmed To Proper Length, Chamfered, Deburred, Fully Sized And Tumble Polished

All Cases Are Fully Prepped And Ready To Load

More Info ↓

Quantity:
1
ADD TO CART
22 NEWTON
The .22 Newton Is A Centerfire Cartridge With A Bullet Diameter Of 0.228 “, That Is Primarily Used In Rifles. This Is Also Known As The 228 Newton. The .22 Newton Originated In The Early 20th Century.. The .22 Newton Also Has A Case Length Of 2.225 “ And An Overall Length Of 2.85 “. There Is Very Little Information About This Cartridge But Several Rifles Were Produced. It Was Originally Based On The 30/06 Springfield.

We Strive To Manufacturer This Product As Close As Possible To Original Specifications. Due To Modern Brass Availability, This Is Sometimes Not Possible. If You Need Specific Dimensions, Please Email Us Prior To Purchase

Due To United States ITAR Regulations, Reloading Components Cannot Be Shipped Outside The United States

All Major Credit Cards Accepted @ Checkout

Checks Or Money Orders Accepted . Please Download Our Order Form

--------------------
RB

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: Question for 22-250 Rem standard or Ackley Improved version [Re: Ripp]
      #361040 - 25/01/22 04:50 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Ripp,

Thank you, That is a nice writeup on the history of the 22/250.

While off the subject, there was a mention of a 22 Newton which I understand is about 1/4" longer than the 22/250 and was intended for 90 gr bullets (0/228" dia.) which with modern powder could be an interesting long range cartridge. I saw that cartridge cases are available at https://www.ammunitionartifacts.com/unitedstatescartridgecases/22-newton



Its giving me a "unknown page" error when I click on it??




Remove the full stop at the end of the link address and it works. Fixed.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26994
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Re: Question for 22-250 Rem standard or Ackley Improved version [Re: NitroX]
      #361050 - 25/01/22 05:37 PM

I got this:

You can return to our homepage by clicking here, or you can try searching for the content you are seeking by clicking here.

I clicked on "here" and got their web site.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: Question for 22-250 Rem standard or Ackley Improved version [Re: Rolf]
      #361055 - 25/01/22 06:10 PM

Quote:


Rolf

PS: If anybody of you is interested in a roe deer hunt in Bavaria/Germany this year, please send me a PM.



I really wish. Somehow I think I will be locked in Stalag Australia another year or two.

Other than your .22/250, what would you say is the ideal cartridge for Roebuck?

My one and only roe, a female, was shot in Denmark with a .222.

I hunted Roebuck one weekend in Northumberland in the UK with a .243. only sighting shots fired.

I have admired the Norwegian Roebuck which looked larger than more Southern species.

My first use of a double rifle was a .22 Mag RF over a 5.6x50 mm Rimmed Frankonia double rifle. The German owner brought it over to Australia, but had used in for roe and other game.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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Ripp
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Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA
Re: Question for 22-250 Rem standard or Ackley Improved version [Re: NitroX]
      #361084 - 26/01/22 03:59 AM

Quote:

Quote:


Rolf

PS: If anybody of you is interested in a roe deer hunt in Bavaria/Germany this year, please send me a PM.



I really wish. Somehow I think I will be locked in Stalag Australia another year or two.

Other than your .22/250, what would you say is the ideal cartridge for Roebuck?

My one and only roe, a female, was shot in Denmark with a .222.

I hunted Roebuck one weekend in Northumberland in the UK with a .243. only sighting shots fired.

I have admired the Norwegian Roebuck which looked larger than more Southern species.

My first use of a double rifle was a .22 Mag RF over a 5.6x50 mm Rimmed Frankonia double rifle. The German owner brought it over to Australia, but had used in for roe and other game.



I would think the 220Swift and .243W would be excellent along with others you already mentioned... 222 and 223..

--------------------
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DarylS
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Re: Question for 22-250 Rem standard or Ackley Improved version [Re: Ripp]
      #361087 - 26/01/22 04:25 AM

I have heard the 60gr. PARTITION requires a faster than the old norm of 16" & 14" twists, as in a 12".
That bullet, or the TSX in 45gr. or 50gr. would likely be even better.
I've a friend who has shot 3 whitetail bucks with his .22-250 using the 45gr. TSX. These were in the middle of fields and 2 dropped on the spot. The third took 4 steps. All exits with 3/4" hole.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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260rem
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Re: Question for 22-250 Rem standard or Ackley Improved version [Re: DarylS]
      #361107 - 26/01/22 10:23 AM

Those TSX and TTSX bullets are amazing when you shoot them light for calibre and fast as you can.
That's what they were actually designed for, shoot lighter bullets flatter for the same killing ability.

For some reason people can't let that simple idea sink into their heads.
A 130gn TTSX will kill big game better in a 30-06 then a 168gn will. Even from a 300 WSM the 130gn will out kill a 168gn.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Question for 22-250 Rem standard or Ackley Improved version [Re: 260rem]
      #361123 - 26/01/22 07:26 PM

Quote:

Those TSX and TTSX bullets are amazing when you shoot them light for calibre and fast as you can.
That's what they were actually designed for, shoot lighter bullets flatter for the same killing ability.

For some reason people can't let that simple idea sink into their heads.
A 130gn TTSX will kill big game better in a 30-06 then a 168gn will. Even from a 300 WSM the 130gn will out kill a 168gn.



Irrespective of the laws of physics.

Hit lots of muscle and bone and ?

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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Ripp
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Re: Question for 22-250 Rem standard or Ackley Improved version [Re: 260rem]
      #361135 - 27/01/22 03:50 AM

Quote:

Those TSX and TTSX bullets are amazing when you shoot them light for calibre and fast as you can.
That's what they were actually designed for, shoot lighter bullets flatter for the same killing ability.

For some reason people can't let that simple idea sink into their heads.
A 130gn TTSX will kill big game better in a 30-06 then a 168gn will. Even from a 300 WSM the 130gn will out kill a 168gn.



I have loaded 100gr TSX for 2 customs I have built chambered in .257Weatherby.. have them loaded at 3670fps.. H1000 powder.. It is very deadly on game.. have used it on elk, deer, pronghorn, bears and coyotes..

I remember once shooting a buck horn out there a ways. Was bedded down with a group of doe's.. he was actually sleeping.. I slipped in as close as the terrain would allow but they were bedded down in the middle of a praire dog town.. Had my rifle rested on a bipod.. waited for a very long time..he finally woke up.. and then stood up.. I fired.. saw fur flying off the backside of him after the shot.. he dropped like a rock.. impressive sight to see..

Personally on game the size of elk however, I still prefer a bonded bullet like a Swift A-Frame.. just seems to thump them a bit more when hit..but, that's me.. each to their own..

--------------------
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Rolf
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Re: Question for 22-250 Rem standard or Ackley Improved version [Re: Ripp]
      #361595 - 06/02/22 07:56 PM

Gentlemen,

thank you for your information on this topic, here a quick review from the first visit to a 100m range:

Ammunition:
Sierra 55grs SPBT Gameking
Kemira N140
CCI SR
PMC case
OAL: 62,4mm

Rifle:
Sauer 80, special barrel in match contour 72cm long / 28" (!)
Leupold fixed 16power scope with a very fine crosshair

conditions: +5° Celsius, rain and strong wind

1st group starting load / 1st shot : bullseye !
4 shots within 27mm

second group ( +1 grs more):
4 shots in 12,9mm

third group ( +2 grs more):
3 shots in 13 mm, plus one flyer opening to 45mm

fourth group ( +3 grs more):
4 shots in 30 mm / primers getting flat
=> test stopped

Now I will retest the loads with +1 and +2 grs and in between, try other seating depths, selected/weighed cases and of course, benchrest primers.

As Ripp stated before, this might be a cartridge for even larger game than foxes, e.g. roe deer on grass plains at longer ranges :-)

@ Nitrox: prefered roe deer cartridge (highly biased)
I had very good results with :
- 7x57 with a 140grs Ballistic Tip at 780 m/s
- 9x57 with a 250grs SP at 640 m/s
- 9,3x57 with a 225grs RWS Doppelkern at 700 m/s

The standard 308 Win is too much / too damaging with the 150grs bullets, but loaded down to ca. 710 m/s a very fine and recoil-friendly cartridge for this small game
And: 9,3x64 with a 250grs Accubond at 800 m/s gives results, but might be on the overkill side...

best regards
Rolf

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93x64mm
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Reged: 07/12/11
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Loc: Nth QLD Australia
Re: Question for 22-250 Rem standard or Ackley Improved version [Re: Rolf]
      #361602 - 06/02/22 10:37 PM

Quote:


The standard 308 Win is too much / too damaging with the 150grs bullets, but loaded down to ca. 710 m/s a very fine and recoil-friendly cartridge for this small game
And: 9,3x64 with a 250grs Accubond at 800 m/s gives results, but might be on the overkill side...

best regards
Rolf



That is certainly a reduced load in your 9.3 Rolf. Even with 55gn of AR2208 or IMR4064 I get about the 2200fps or about 670m/s with a 270gn Speer - it sails through pigs & rusa deer, not much meat loss.
As to overkill.....well, just a little.

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