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wkudu
.275 member

Reged: 24/12/17
Posts: 60
Loc: United States

Kurz mauser, who outbid me?
#359333 - 17/12/21 12:11 PM

Because you still got a very good price. You bastard!

https://auctions.morphyauctions.com/LotDetail.aspx?inventoryid=518412

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mckinney
.400 member

Reged: 29/01/09
Posts: 1225
Loc: usa

Re: Kurz mauser, who outbid me? [Re: wkudu]
#359626 - 24/12/21 01:47 PM

It wasn’t me although I did consider bidding. I was fortunate enough to get a pretty nice example of the same rifle and caliber in a Poulins auction a few years ago, so I wasn’t prepared to get aggressive on this one. Would like to have had it though!

Interestingly there was a guy who listed yet another one of these rifles (Type M 8x51) on gunbroker five or six years ago. He listed it with a buy it now option at around $3250. In the text of the ad he noted that he would drop the buy it now price incrementally each time the ad cycled without a buyer. Somebody finally bought it at about $2,900. Five years on, there is a lot more interest in this variation and prices seem to be up 75% or so.

I’ve narrowly missed so many auction items that I don’t take it too hard nowadays. Usually I’m over the loss in a day or two.

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3DogMike
.400 member

Reged: 29/01/15
Posts: 1464
Loc: Western Slope, Colorado USA

Re: Kurz mauser, who outbid me? [Re: wkudu]
#359635 - 25/12/21 07:47 AM

Quote:

Because you still got a very good price. You bastard!

https://auctions.morphyauctions.com/LotDetail.aspx?inventoryid=518412

You could have bid higher? Then who would have been "the bastard"

…..
- Mike

--------------------
"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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wkudu
.275 member

Reged: 24/12/17
Posts: 60
Loc: United States

Re: Kurz mauser, who outbid me? [Re: 3DogMike]
#359750 - 29/12/21 06:11 AM

No I couldn't go any higher responsibly. Unfortunately the collectors have prices high. That gun could have gone for even higher. Maybe I could have talked myself into a more usable caliber

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Ripp
.577 member

Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA

Re: Kurz mauser, who outbid me? [Re: 3DogMike]
#359752 - 29/12/21 06:24 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Because you still got a very good price. You bastard!

https://auctions.morphyauctions.com/LotDetail.aspx?inventoryid=518412

You could have bid higher? Then who would have been "the bastard" …..
- Mike

SEASONS GREETINGS...

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

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3DogMike
.400 member

Reged: 29/01/15
Posts: 1464
Loc: Western Slope, Colorado USA

Re: Kurz mauser, who outbid me? [Re: wkudu]
#359759 - 29/12/21 09:44 AM

Quote:

No I couldn't go any higher responsibly. Unfortunately the collectors have prices high. That gun could have gone for even higher. Maybe I could have talked myself into a more usable caliber

My pet peeve…."collectors & investors"

, as opposed to enthusiasts that will actually appreciate and use these old time capsules as intended instead of locking them away..
Yes…..some of the bid prices are truly insane.
- 3DogMike

--------------------
"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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Rothhammer1
.400 member

Reged: 06/01/17
Posts: 1826
Loc: The Redwoods of California

Re: Kurz mauser, who outbid me? [Re: 3DogMike]
#360850 - 21/01/22 05:40 PM

All you need is a time machine... :

--------------------
Citizen of the Cherokee Nation

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NitroX
.700 member

Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39885
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...

Re: Kurz mauser, who outbid me? [Re: Rothhammer1]
#360852 - 21/01/22 06:08 PM

What is a 8x51 Mauser?

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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Marrakai
.416 member

Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3591
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia

Re: Kurz mauser, who outbid me? [Re: NitroX]
#360856 - 21/01/22 07:56 PM

In that context, a typo...?

...but there was such a cartridge apparently.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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kuduae
.400 member

Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1792
Loc: middle of Germany

Re: Kurz mauser, who outbid me? [Re: Marrakai]
#360865 - 21/01/22 11:42 PM

Quote:

In that context, a typo...?

...but there was such a cartridge apparently.

No typo!The 8x51 (Mauser K) cartridge was a special cartridge for use in the short Mauser K = kurz = short actions like this rifle, introduced by Mauser about 1901. A .30-30 class cartridge, it was intended for use on roebuck and other small deer or antelope. It was chambered in the K-action commercial Mausers and the Schmidt & Habermann M21. It uses .318” bullets. In the 1930s it was offered by DWM only. Two loads were available then:
157 gr jacketed rn, 38.5 gr R5 smokeless for 2156 fps
196 gr j. rn, 38.5 gr R5 for 2100 fps (20” barrels)
Obsolete since WW2, it is a pure handloader’s number now. Cases may be formed from .308 Winchester brass.

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mckinney
.400 member

Reged: 29/01/09
Posts: 1225
Loc: usa

Re: Kurz mauser, who outbid me? [Re: 3DogMike]
#360870 - 22/01/22 01:06 AM

The collectors/investors market has pushed other things out of reach. When I was younger I dreamed of having a vintage Ferrari from the 60’s. I thought the 330 GTC (about $50k at the time) was elegant, understated and just about perfect. The 275 GTB (about $80k then) was the same - so much better than current cars I thought. Gonna have one of those two when I get some money, I thought.

Now the 330 is $800k and the 275 about $2.7 million. Some of these cars are stored for decades, restored at great cost, and put back into storage. An unrestored one with original patina is the holy grail and will fetch 50% more. So I haven’t been able to buy one and likely never will.

Same with land, vintage audio equipment and lots of other stuff.

Looks like asset prices will see a reckoning when interest rates return to historical averages, but it won’t help as most of us have wealth tied up in equities, real estate etc.

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Rothhammer1
.400 member

Reged: 06/01/17
Posts: 1826
Loc: The Redwoods of California

Re: Kurz mauser, who outbid me? [Re: NitroX]
#360872 - 22/01/22 01:35 AM

Quote:

What is a 8x51 Mauser?

--------------------
Citizen of the Cherokee Nation

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Huvius
.416 member

Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 3556
Loc: Colorado

Re: Kurz mauser, who outbid me? [Re: mckinney]
#360876 - 22/01/22 04:39 AM

Quote:

The collectors/investors market has pushed other things out of reach. When I was younger I dreamed of having a vintage Ferrari from the 60’s. I thought the 330 GTC (about $50k at the time) was elegant, understated and just about perfect. The 275 GTB (about $80k then) was the same - so much better than current cars I thought. Gonna have one of those two when I get some money, I thought.

Now the 330 is $800k and the 275 about $2.7 million. Some of these cars are stored for decades, restored at great cost, and put back into storage. An unrestored one with original patina is the holy grail and will fetch 50% more. So I haven’t been able to buy one and likely never will.

Same with land, vintage audio equipment and lots of other stuff.

Looks like asset prices will see a reckoning when interest rates return to historical averages, but it won’t help as most of us have wealth tied up in equities, real estate etc.

You are absolutely right about Ferraris!
When I was younger, I passed on a 250 PF Coupe. It was $75K.
The reason was because I was at an auction at the Monterey historics and saw a perfect silver over blue interior 250 GT Lusso sell for $100K and thought, I'll just save longer and get one of those.

That plan was short lived as prices jumped from sub $150K to well over a million in about five years span it seemed.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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Huvius
.416 member

Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 3556
Loc: Colorado

Re: Kurz mauser, who outbid me? [Re: 3DogMike]
#360877 - 22/01/22 04:48 AM

Quote:

My pet peeve…."collectors & investors" , as opposed to enthusiasts that will actually appreciate and use these old time capsules as intended instead of locking them away..
Yes…..some of the bid prices are truly insane.
- 3DogMike

True in the Mauser world but doubles still seem to me to be pretty soft right now compared to a few years ago.
Single shot rifles seem to just plod along without much substantial gains or losses.

I didn't buy that Mauser either - was hoping to scoop it up cheap but I guess too many people were wise enough to know what they were looking at.
Once it went over what I was willing to pay, I pointed out the misinformation in the description. Let somebody else have at it.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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kuduae
.400 member

Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1792
Loc: middle of Germany

Re: Kurz mauser, who outbid me? [Re: Huvius]
#360879 - 22/01/22 05:31 AM

Quote:

I pointed out the misinformation in the description.

Huvius, the only misinformation I see is “Receiver looks to be an early 1930's Standard Model”. As the 3rd pkoto shows, it is a small ring, short K action. As the receiver sidewall is too short for the usual inscription, “Waffenfabrik” starts on the receiver ring where it encroaches the 1931 serial number. So it is obviously a rare factory original type M Stutzen on an even rarer square bridge K action in the appropriate 8x51 chambering.

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Huvius
.416 member

Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 3556
Loc: Colorado

Re: Kurz mauser, who outbid me? [Re: kuduae]
#360884 - 22/01/22 07:14 AM

That's what I'm talking about - makes all the difference in the world as far as value.
We discussed it on this thread:
http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=357885&an=0&page=0#Post357885

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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DarylS
.700 member

Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26998
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...

Re: Kurz mauser, who outbid me? [Re: kuduae]
#360885 - 22/01/22 07:45 AM

Quote:

No typo!The 8x51 (Mauser K) cartridge was a special cartridge for use in the short Mauser K = kurz = short actions like this rifle, introduced by Mauser about 1901. A .30-30 class cartridge, it was intended for use on roebuck and other small deer or antelope. It was chambered in the K-action commercial Mausers and the Schmidt & Habermann M21. It uses .318” bullets. In the 1930s it was offered by DWM only. Two loads were available then:
157 gr jacketed rn, 38.5 gr R5 smokeless for 2156 fps
196 gr j. rn, 38.5 gr R5 for 2100 fps (20” barrels)
Obsolete since WW2, it is a pure handloader’s number now. Cases may be formed from .308 Winchester brass.

Interestingly down loaded to the extreme. I looked at the chart I have but only 8x50(1)R is noted as 50,000psi. I would be surprised if this 8x51 develops that much pressure. It does not appear so, by this data.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Waidmannsheil
.400 member

Reged: 19/04/13
Posts: 2443
Loc: Melbourne Australia

Re: Kurz mauser, who outbid me? [Re: mckinney]
#360890 - 22/01/22 11:04 AM

Same with vintage wristwatches. Prices are out of control now with certain pieces selling for millions of dollars at auctions. Even ordinary pieces are selling for a lot. However there are also many more pieces sitting for sale forever as the asking price is way to much and the seller thinks they are going to make a killing. You are not making a killing if you don't sell it.

It's the same with many firearms, especially if the seller is someone who offers a more high end product, then they seem to think that everything they sell is worth a fortune even if it isn't.

it's the same here especially with Mannlicher Schoenauers where they often initially ask stupid money and they never sell until a more realistic price is reached.

Matt.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.

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mckinney
.400 member

Reged: 29/01/09
Posts: 1225
Loc: usa

Re: Kurz mauser, who outbid me? [Re: Huvius]
#360891 - 22/01/22 11:13 AM

Huvius

That GT coupe is now roughly $600K and the Lusso about $1.6 million, according to Hagerty's.

I used to be lukewarm on the GT coupe's looks but now I think they look great. (As you can see I still think about these cars.)

Agree on the double rifles, was going to make the same observation.

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Marrakai
.416 member

Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3591
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia

Re: Kurz mauser, who outbid me? [Re: mckinney]
#360892 - 22/01/22 11:31 AM

kuduae:
The reason I posted "In that context..." was because that advert was for a No.615, not a No.605K.
...and it seemed very unusual not to have listed the 8x57 there.

In agreement with everyone here, I too am having difficulty accepting the stupidly-high asking prices for what is after all pretty standard hardware. I object to paying what I call "Covid Tax"!

The high-end stuff will always command a premium though, usually well-deserved, covid or no covid.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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Rothhammer1
.400 member

Reged: 06/01/17
Posts: 1826
Loc: The Redwoods of California

Re: Kurz mauser, who outbid me? [Re: Waidmannsheil]
#360895 - 22/01/22 12:09 PM

Quote:

it's the same here especially with Mannlicher Schoenauers where they often initially ask stupid money and they never sell until a more realistic price is reached.

Per the conversion rate of usinflationcalculator.com, the prices listed for new 'off the shelf' Mannlicher Schoenauer rifles and stutzen in the 1939 Stoeger catalog would equate to a range from $2,808.08 to $3,510.10 USD at the time of this writing.

Options could add hundreds more, $15 (upgrade cost of Take Down Model) of 1939 being the equivalent of $300.87 today, and the $45.00 cost of a ribbed Antinit barrel would equate to $902.60.

usinflationcalculator

Mauser prices of 1939 were comparable with the Model B 'Kurz' (listed as #605k) at $125.00 ($2507.21) and the #615 stutzen ranging from $148.00 to $175.00 ($2,968.54 to $3,510.10 in early 2022 USD).

By comparison, the 1939 price of a Colt .45 'Frontier Six Shooter Model' would equate to $752.16 in today's USD:

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Rothhammer1
.400 member

Reged: 06/01/17
Posts: 1826
Loc: The Redwoods of California

Re: Kurz mauser, who outbid me? [Re: Marrakai]
#360906 - 22/01/22 10:03 PM

Quote:

kuduae:
The reason I posted "In that context..." was because that advert was for a No.615, not a No.605K.
...and it seemed very unusual not to have listed the 8x57 there.

That the 1939 Stoeger catalog listings may be inconsistent with Mauser designations or incomplete of then current offerings, if so, should be of little surprise.

Consider that in the same catalog, Mannlicher Schoenauer offerings were listed without the Steyr model designations of M1903, M1905, M1908, M1910, M1924 and were only defined as Carbine, High Velocity, or Take Down Model yet offering several options of each.

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mckinney
.400 member

Reged: 29/01/09
Posts: 1225
Loc: usa

Re: Kurz mauser, who outbid me? [Re: Rothhammer1]
#360913 - 23/01/22 01:03 AM

It would be interesting to convert the Stoeger prices of British rifles (double and bolt) to today's dollars. I bet the disparity between the converted prices and current selling price would be greater than with the Mausers and Mannlichers, even after double prices have cooled off a bit.

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Rothhammer1
.400 member

Reged: 06/01/17
Posts: 1826
Loc: The Redwoods of California

Re: Kurz mauser, who outbid me? [Re: mckinney]
#360920 - 23/01/22 01:57 AM

Figure the prices at a bit over 20X. The $1,400.00 1939 price of the 'Modele De Luxe' would be $28,080.78 in today's dollars per usinflationcalculator .

--------------------
Citizen of the Cherokee Nation

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