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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Mannlicher Discussion forum & Archive

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Rum_River
.224 member

Reged: 20/10/19
Posts: 15
Loc: Minnesota

Question on Vienna Mounts
#358269 - 18/11/21 09:46 AM

First post here - been lurking for awhile.

Some background.....

Have been looking for a 1903 carbine for years with no luck. In the process I kept tripping over other beautiful items. This explains why a 1908 carbine with a Lyman #36 peep ended up at my house. Also explains why a 1952 carbine in 7x57 is keeping company with the 1908.

So after ten years of looking and having pretty much given up I find the 1903. Proofed in 1929 and has an Oigee Berlin Gnom 4x in Vienna mounts which are serial numbered to the rifle.

Question: Am I correct that Vienna mounts are silver soldered to the scope tube? Is this something that is done at Steyr or at the scope manufacturer? Or at a third party gunsmith who then fits the mounts to the firearm?

Until I found this 1903 I didn't know Vienna mounts existed.

Thanks......

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DonZ
.300 member

Reged: 24/12/12
Posts: 120
Loc: BW

Re: Question on Vienna Mounts [Re: Rum_River]
#358278 - 18/11/21 03:55 PM

Mine are silver soldered on. The scope I have on the M1910 was done (and stamped) by Johann Springer Erben in Vienna.

https://www.springer-vienna.com/en/about/company/history-1830-1880

Edited by DonZ (18/11/21 03:56 PM)

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lancaster
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Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 9034
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Re: Question on Vienna Mounts [Re: DonZ]
#358322 - 19/11/21 07:18 AM

the scope mount was made than by your local gunmaker who had the pre build parts and fit them together by hand
dont know if steyr did this at request of the customer but they where in any case able to do it.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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Rum_River
.224 member

Reged: 20/10/19
Posts: 15
Loc: Minnesota

Re: Question on Vienna Mounts [Re: lancaster]
#358339 - 20/11/21 12:32 AM

Thank you for the replies.

DonZ:
I didn't happen to see any stampings indicating what gunsmith could have been involved - but I will take a more detailed look. In your case was the entire name stamped or did Mr. Erben use initials, or maybe a symbol similar to a proof mark?

Lancaster:
I was wondering why the parts themselves look so similar from rifle to rifle when the work itself was being performed by independent shops.

Question:
How do the Vienna mounts compare to the claw mounts? My new-to-me 1903 is my only M-S with original scope mounts so I have no claw mounts for a frame of reference.

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lancaster
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Re: Question on Vienna Mounts [Re: Rum_River]
#358341 - 20/11/21 03:50 AM

they looking similar because its allways the same around - rifle and scope - but don't hope to find matching parts. well, it can happen but this means nothing in the end.
http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=239619&page=0&fpart=2&vc=1
the gunsmith could order the parts from maybe 1-10 different maker and he was able to change them in any direcktion with a file.
they were very good than working with a file.our old gunmaker had made the claw mount parts for his special made rifles completly from a steel block at home because he was not happy with the factory made blanks.
its true that the vienna snap mount lost its place after the war against the suhl claw mount also in austria and there were many reasons for this but the main point was maybe that the claw mounbt was sturdier in the end (imho).

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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DonZ
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Reged: 24/12/12
Posts: 120
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Re: Question on Vienna Mounts [Re: lancaster]
#358344 - 20/11/21 05:53 AM

The full name is actually stamped along the top of the scope. I thought I'd had a photo, but I can't find it. If I get the chance this weekend, I will try and take another. Shockingly, I was able to find the scope with mounts on eGun, and then was able to get a smith to adapt it to my rifle. Overall I am quite happy with it!

--------------------
Honor never grows old, and honor rejoices the heart of age...

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Rothhammer1
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Reged: 06/01/17
Posts: 1826
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Re: Question on Vienna Mounts [Re: Rum_River]
#358388 - 21/11/21 09:46 AM

Quote:

Question: Am I correct that Vienna mounts are silver soldered to the scope tube? Is this something that is done at Steyr or at the scope manufacturer? Or at a third party gunsmith who then fits the mounts to the firearm?

Until I found this 1903 I didn't know Vienna mounts existed.

Thanks......

It is my understanding that when a Mannlicher Schoenauer rifle or stutzen was ordered from Steyr with mounted telescopic sight during the period prior to the Second World War that mounts and scopes were installed by guild shops in the Steyr area, not at the factory of Oesterr. Waffenfabr. Ges. Steyr (Steyr Werke after 1926). This may account for variance in the particular mounts and methods used while being essentially alike.

Member Kuduae could likely provide more precise information. If so, I would trust any such details for accuracy as Herr Eichendorff is very well acquainted with the history of MS and other early 20th Century Continental firearms.

My 1922 proofed M1910 Take Down Model wears a claw mounted Gerard B that may have been installed in England (as the rifle bears English proofs) or at Ceylon where it was purchased 'second hand' by my Grandfather in late 1931. As the front mount is dovetailed to the barrel rather than saddle mounted I presume it to be an 'aftermarket' installation.

From 1939 Stoeger Catalog

Post WW2 Steyr 'factory' mounts (also from Stoeger)

Various images, swiped from the 'net, of 'Vienna Snapper' mounts in no particular order:

--------------------
Citizen of the Cherokee Nation

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Rothhammer1
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Reged: 06/01/17
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Re: Question on Vienna Mounts [Re: Rum_River]
#358390 - 21/11/21 10:25 AM

Quote:

Until I found this 1903 I didn't know Vienna mounts existed.

You may find these threads to be of interest:

http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=315662&an=0&page=0

https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=274762

"Question:
How do the Vienna mounts compare to the claw mounts? My new-to-me 1903 is my only M-S with original scope mounts so I have no claw mounts for a frame of reference."

I have no 'Vienna Snapper' to cross reference but my claw mount is simple, efficient, reliable, and always returns to precise 'zero'.

From what I have read the Vienna mounts are every bit as good, perhaps a bit less durable(?).

Potato, potatoe, tomato, tomatoe.

--------------------
Citizen of the Cherokee Nation

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Rum_River
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Reged: 20/10/19
Posts: 15
Loc: Minnesota

Re: Question on Vienna Mounts [Re: Rothhammer1]
#360693 - 19/01/22 02:08 PM

Finally got around to producing a photo.

Edited by Rum_River (19/01/22 02:09 PM)

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DonZ
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Reged: 24/12/12
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Re: Question on Vienna Mounts [Re: Rum_River]
#361249 - 29/01/22 06:39 AM

I promised this photo a while back, but never posted it. It came up in another conversation, so I thought I'd take the opportunity to cross post it to here:

[image]https://www.africahunting.com/attachments/img_5284-jpg.449495/[/image]

--------------------
Honor never grows old, and honor rejoices the heart of age...

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kuduae
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Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1792
Loc: middle of Germany

Re: Question on Vienna Mounts [Re: DonZ]
#361260 - 29/01/22 09:51 AM

As Rothhammer1 posted a link to my old doublegunshop post above, I repost a slightly updated version here:
The photo, posted here again, shows my M24 rifle and two scopes with Vienna style snap-on mounts, a Kahles, Vienna "Mignon 4x" on top, now on a M-S M1905, and a Kahles "Heliavier 4x" below. The Heliavier sits on top of my M1924 Mannlicher-Schoenauer in 30-06.

Here is another Heliavier on another Mannlicher Schoenauer:

and a third one (a Zeiss "Zielvier", but same dimensions):

Note: though the scopes are the same size and all three are mounted with the three-legged Vienna style snapper mounts on M1924 Mannlicher-Schoenauers, all three mounts differ in detail. These mounts were offered pre-WW2 by Steyr as a "factory option", but apparently they were handmade by outworkers/ gunsmithes outside the factory. Nothing is interchangeable. These mounts were all serial numbered to the rifles. There is no current source for these mounts. All you can do is to scrounge up such mounts and scope at gunshows or on ebay or egun and handfile the missing parts to fit the tops to your gun bases. The mounts are usually soldered to the scope tubes, sometimes even brazed, as I found out to my dismay. So you need someone able to completely dis-and reassemble these old scopes first. And, these Vienna Schn�ppermontagen are not the best mounts anyhow when it comes to stability and durability. Usually, windage adjustment can only be done by hammer and drift punch, slightly moving the front base in the desired direction. So a simpler approach is to remove the existing bases, store them for later collector purposes and fit modern bases into the existing cuts.

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