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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles
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tinker
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Bore rifles, what alloy for ball or conical?
      #35537 - 07/08/05 11:03 AM

I'm poking around with the 16 bore double rifles this weekend.
They share the same bore diameter, but the groove diameter in the short cased gun is larger. I think the rifling twist in that gun is slower too.
I want to set my 16b roundball mould up for the short case gun, I'm leaning to conicals for the Mahillon anyway.

Does anyone here shoot a bore rifle with roundball?
The twist rate in the short case gun is just under one in 100"
The brass for that gun is 30mm.
My sense is 2-3/4 to 3-1/2 drms of FF will do it for that gun and roundball.

Pure lead?
If not, what alloy?
I should know what I'm going to cast before I lap the roundball mould to size for the alloy I'd be casting.

--Tinker




--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Bore rifles, what alloy for ball or conical? [Re: tinker]
      #35538 - 07/08/05 11:05 AM


Pure lead.

Some people make them too hard using alloy (not dure what).

500 Nitro

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Raff
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Reged: 12/01/04
Posts: 182
Loc: Texas
Re: Bore rifles, what alloy for ball or conical? [Re: tinker]
      #35541 - 07/08/05 11:52 AM

Tinker;
I shoot bore rifles. Soft lead balls and forget
everything else. In my 16 is use a .692" round of 490
grains. If this size would work, let me know
and I'll send you some before you modify your mould.
Raff

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tinker
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Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: Bore rifles, what alloy for ball or conical? [Re: Raff]
      #35543 - 07/08/05 12:44 PM

Thanks guys-

I'd figured pure lead from the start.

Two triggers, the groove diameter of the 30mm cased gun is just about .675"
Are you running balls oversize for your groove diameter?
If so, I'm in and would like to get a pile of those .692 balls you have to test.
Seventeen thou seems like a bit oversize though doesn't it?

--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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Raff
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Reged: 12/01/04
Posts: 182
Loc: Texas
Re: Bore rifles, what alloy for ball or conical? [Re: tinker]
      #35545 - 07/08/05 01:31 PM

Tinker;
Seventeen thou. is just a bit over the edge. Mine is
.692 groove dia for a this brass case. These are not
going to work in yours.
Could you explain the "30 mm" part of your post. I
am not following that. Too big for bore, very short for
the case.. I'm confused, as usual.
Raff

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tinker
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Reged: 12/03/05
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Loc: Nevada
Case length [Re: Raff]
      #35549 - 07/08/05 02:15 PM

The Mahillon runs 40+ mm brass.
This other sixteen bore double is of short case design, the brass (just about .028" or .75mm wall thickness) is only 30mm long. That's perfect room for 2-1/2 to 3 drams of black powder, a felt wad and card, and a roundball. That all comes together with plenty of room for jump to the rifling.

The Mahillon has normal case length for what it is (both of these guns are pinfire by the way...) but is running smallish for the bore designation balls.

I had a talk with Lewis Drake the other day about running the sixteen bore rifle and one of his comments was that running undersized balls -within reason- is fine, the real trick is to get good consistent gas seal. He says if I get good even gas seal that the road to a regulation load is to simply add black powder till it hits to the sights.
That is my goal at this time.
As it is, the mould I have throws perfect for groove diameter balls for the Mahillon. I'll just try them out on this other rifle and see how it goes.
Haven't had the bore rifles out to get running properly yet, hopefully this week the job will be in the bag.

What are you using for wads, grease, and gas seals?


--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Case length [Re: tinker]
      #35552 - 07/08/05 03:25 PM


Try TEFLON tape on the lead bullets for a gas seal.

Alot of people in OZ use it including on Paradox's and Bore guns.

500 Nitro

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Raff
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Reged: 12/01/04
Posts: 182
Loc: Texas
Re: Bore rifles, what alloy for ball or conical? [Re: tinker]
      #35564 - 08/08/05 01:09 AM

Tinker
Old fashioned fiber wads from ballistic products
and a roll crimp.
Raff

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tinker
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Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: Bore rifles, what alloy for ball or conical? [Re: Raff]
      #35705 - 11/08/05 12:58 PM

Got the cases made for this gun.

Ended up looking most like the 33mm case size, the brass measures that many millimeters from the breechface end to the case mouth.
I'm running percussion caps, two and three quarter drams of GoexFF, milk carton 'cup wads' made in my lathe by pushing 10ga punch size card wads through a special die with a special punch to form little gas seal cups, and saddle felt doughnut shaped wads soaked with bore butter. That all's topped with the 411 grain roundball made from pure lead and cast in the little pincher mould from my cased Mahillon set. It ends up being a slightly compressed load and feels right as it comes together.
I'll be shooting it tomorrow morning at dawn out at the ranch.
Wish me luck.


--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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Alex_Henry
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Reged: 12/08/05
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Re: Bore rifles, what alloy for ball or conical? [Re: tinker]
      #36071 - 18/08/05 10:01 PM

I have shot a considerable number of round ball bore rifles over the years and I have always found that a melt between 1:20 and 1:10 with a groove diameter ball gives the best accuracy. Softer melts like 1:30 are great for hunting but a little bit more accuracy can usually be achieved with a little higher tin content. All this being said I have also found that all of these rifles are essentially unique so I would try several different melts and let the rifle tell me what it likes!

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Re: Bore rifles, what alloy for ball or conical? [Re: Raff]
      #36156 - 20/08/05 02:49 AM

.692 is generally 14 bore, not 16, BTW. .662 is 16 bore, of course, groove diameters will vary slightly. I'd expect a 16 to be no more than .675 on the grooves.
: Pure lead or perhaps 30:1 or 40:1 lead to tin would work just fine. It is also a solf alloy.
; I have used 1/2 and 1/2, pure lead mixed with WheelWeight metal to good advantage, even in smaller calibre BP ctgs guns, saving somewhat on my meager pure lead stocks suplimenting it with free wheelweights.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Retex
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Reged: 30/03/05
Posts: 11
Loc: Texas
Re: Case length [Re: 500Nitro]
      #36399 - 24/08/05 08:05 AM

500 Nitro
How are you using teflon tape on Paradox bullets? Does it take the place of lube, is the tape used in the manner of paper patching or does this have another purpose? I am new to shooting double rifles and am just beginning to load for a 12 bore paradox using moulds obtained from Australia.

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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Case length [Re: Retex]
      #36400 - 24/08/05 08:16 AM


I don't shoot BP Doubles or Paradox's but I have seen others loading up rounds and wrapping
teflon tape around the bullets.

I think it may take the place of Paper patching and make a better bullet to bore fit.

I can ask around and check if you want.


500 Nitro

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tinker
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Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Teflon tape [Re: Retex]
      #36411 - 24/08/05 12:43 PM

Something to consider about your typical teflon tape is that it's about two ten thousandths of an inch thick.
That's .0002"
It'll take quite a bit of that stuff to make a difference, but for what it's worth, I'd guess it's not likely to flow or burn or allow lead deposits to occur on the rifling when used in blackpowder bore rifles. That may be the benefit right there.
Getting it to stay put while seating the bullets might be another task in itself.
I haven't tried it, although I have used plumber's teflon tape as a sub thou thick shim in the machine shop numerous times.
The teflon might make the bullet 'slicker' too, which might end up calling for some kind of load adjustment, might be just the trick to getting the barrel's groups to converge sooner than later while working up powder charges too.
Things to ponder...

I'm interested to hear the notes from your friends, 500

For what it's worth, I'm still working on a load for the new bore rifle. Shot the Mahillon today with stellar results. I'll be getting it out again later in the week to work it at a hundred yards.
I'll likely have the other 16b sxs out there working on it too.


--Tinker



--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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