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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Shotguns
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cr500
.300 member


Reged: 11/10/03
Posts: 215
Loc: Singleton ,Australia
Poor pattern at 40yds
      #35515 - 06/08/05 04:00 PM

I pattern tested my Suhl SXS sidelock at 40 yds today with 34gm No5 field loads and noticed that the pattern was very patchy with some areas saturated by shot while other areas a duck could have flown through without being hit. Will backboring and longer forcing cones make much difference at the pattern board when using field loads? I didnt want to spend the bucks if the improvement will only be marginal. Also will the reduction in recoil be noticable? Does backboring or lengthening forcing cones reduce the presure at all to maybe save wear and tear on the gun?

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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Poor pattern at 40yds [Re: cr500]
      #35521 - 07/08/05 01:29 AM

cr500

Before doing any modifications to your gun, try using different cartrdiges.

For a start, try different brands of 28gm and 32gm and No 4's and No 6's.
This will also cut down on recoil. Alot of the high velocity Shotgun loads
lose the extra velocity at the mid to end of the range of a shotgun.

It is said that Lengthening forcing cones does reduce recoil.

How is your shotgun choked ? Full and Full or Half and Full.
If either of these, I would get these taken out to 1/4 and 1/2 as modern
shells give tighter patterns anyway due to the wads used nowadays.

If it is a heavier Pigeon type gun (Pistol grip stock, file cut rib), I have
just come back from overseas where I went shooting pheasants and I used
a Pigeon gun where the chokes had been modified to 1/4 and 1/2 from
Full and Full and i as great. I have always believed that Pigeon guns
with chokes taken out are great guns to use.

As to wear and tear, I don't think in your lifetime you'll wear the gun out.

500 Nitro

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cr500
.300 member


Reged: 11/10/03
Posts: 215
Loc: Singleton ,Australia
Re: Poor pattern at 40yds [Re: 500Nitro]
      #35558 - 07/08/05 06:28 PM

The chokes seem to be about full and 3/4 going by measurements and patterns. I will try some other ammo first to see how they go ,but I,m thinking of getting the chokes opened up a bit anyway to something like 1/4 and 3/4 or 1/4 and 1/2 ,so if new designed forcing cones will improve patterns with field loads ,then I would look into it while the gun was at the smith. But only if they do make a real difference.

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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Poor pattern at 40yds [Re: cr500]
      #35560 - 07/08/05 07:25 PM


cr500

Go 1/4 and 1/2 as modern lead shells give tighter groups than
older paper wad shells. You can also tighten patterns by changing
shells if you do some patern testing and know what shells work
in your gun.

As to forcing cones, I am not sure whether it would change the pattern
that much - only recoil but I would change the chokes first.

500 Nitro

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cr500
.300 member


Reged: 11/10/03
Posts: 215
Loc: Singleton ,Australia
Re: Poor pattern at 40yds [Re: 500Nitro]
      #35575 - 08/08/05 09:38 AM

I was thinking of getting the chokes modified by Mialls anyway so I will definitley do that . I have been doing a bit of research and asking questions over the last few day about what to do. The general concensus seems to be ,dont bother with the backboring but that the longer forcing cones will have a few benifits. They said it will improve patterns a bit ,especialy with heavier loads. They said it reduces recoil a bit and reduces stress on the gun a bit as well. According to Mialls ,if I get the longer forcing cones and modify the chokes to a more modern design ,that it should be steel proof if I ever want to use it with steel.
I will probably do it for these reasons alone and then experiment with different loads as you said to get the pattern how I want it.
I,m not sure exactly what a pigeon gun is ,though I have hear of it a few times. This gun has a sligthtly concave rib with serations filed into it. It also has a pistol grip with an engraved grip cap. Can you tell me what a "pigeon gun" means?

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rgp
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Reged: 17/06/04
Posts: 373
Loc: TX & VIC
Re: Poor pattern at 40yds [Re: cr500]
      #35607 - 09/08/05 08:32 AM

If this gun was made before the 1950s, there is another option in addition to trying other varieties of factory ammunition...If you have a shotshell reloader, you may be able to fix it by loading rounds that have loose pellets in between old fashioned felt wads, instead of a modern plastic shot cup inside the shell. If it patterns properly with the old fashioned ammunition, then there is probably nothing wrong with the chokes, but rechoking could be necessary if you want to use commonly available ammunition.

Richard

ps, pigeon guns were used for competition, shooting live pigeons, which was done before greenies and clay pigeons.

Edited by rgp (09/08/05 08:34 AM)

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cr500
.300 member


Reged: 11/10/03
Posts: 215
Loc: Singleton ,Australia
Re: Poor pattern at 40yds [Re: rgp]
      #35611 - 09/08/05 09:55 AM

I have just checked the serial number and it seems to have been made around the mid 1890s so it is pretty old. It would not have been made to suit modern shotshells and wads. Since I wanted to be able to use modern ammo in it (not heavy magnum loads though) ,I will get the forcing cones and chokes modified to suit modern shells.

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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Poor pattern at 40yds [Re: cr500]
      #35612 - 09/08/05 10:30 AM


cr500

if it's made in 1890 I would just check that it is proofed for
Nitro loads and not Black Powder only.

If you can't tell, list the proof marks on here and I'll get the book
out.

I will come back with an explanation of Pigeon / Game gun when
I get more than 2 seconds !!!


500 Nitro

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cr500
.300 member


Reged: 11/10/03
Posts: 215
Loc: Singleton ,Australia
Re: Poor pattern at 40yds [Re: 500Nitro]
      #35625 - 09/08/05 02:57 PM

Here is a picture of the proof marks

Left barrel has letters B ,W and U stamped with a crown above each. Right barrel Has letters B,S and U with a crown above each letter plus 13/1 stamped in as well.

[image]http://www.hunt101.com/watermark.php?file=500/16413P8090026-med.JPG[/image]

[image]http://www.hunt101.com/watermark.php?file=500/16413P8060017-med.JPG[/image]



Edited by cr500 (09/08/05 04:02 PM)

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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Poor pattern at 40yds [Re: cr500]
      #35636 - 10/08/05 01:47 AM


cr500

That looks a very nice gun indeed and one I would be keeping hold of.
It is not often you see a Sidelock German gun - most seem to be the big
boxlock actions that can be a bit "clunky".

Questions
- are they Steel Barrels with the blue worn off or Damascus barrels ?
- Do you know definatively that the gun was made in 1890 ?

Re proof marks - German proof marks are not as easy but from my initial
readings it looks like it was only proofed for Black Powder.

I am trying to find another book which I think has more info in it
about German proof marks.

Hope this initially helps.

500 Nitro

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cr500
.300 member


Reged: 11/10/03
Posts: 215
Loc: Singleton ,Australia
Re: Poor pattern at 40yds [Re: 500Nitro]
      #36472 - 25/08/05 10:41 AM

Looking at some articles in Double gun journal ,my gun was made in late 1899. It has steel barrels (made by Krupp) going by the barrel stamps. I wouldnt mind finding out whether the action is strong enough for full power loads. I will be sending it down to Mialls to get some other work done ,maybe they can give me an idea of its strength. If it is not over strong ,then I will just use it with 24-28 gm loads.

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