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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Paradox and Bore Guns
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450
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Loc: Melbourne,Victoria, Australia
Re: 12 bore bullets or molds [Re: DarylS]
      #69492 - 15/01/07 09:50 AM

Omnivorous Bob and Daryl S.

I am waiting for some new cases before I do more testing as the cut down plastic ones become too short and the once fired are hard to roll crimp. I will look at the other powders you mentioned.
I will chrono the loads to see what they are doing. A 10 bore sounds even better. Very rare out here. The most important thing I want is accuracy. As you said Daryl, I would be happy with 2" at 50 yards.
Be back soon

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DarylS
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Re: 12 bore bullets or molds [Re: 450]
      #69697 - 18/01/07 04:36 AM

Looking forward to seeing your results, 450.
: Since shooting the heavy recoiling bore rifles can be a challenging affair, I've come to the conclusion that sitting down and firing off 10, 20 or more rounds from the bench while testing loads, can be wearing on the nerves & give false results. The most-important 1st and 2nd shots led me to try a different approach.
: I've tried, with good success, in sitting down, and shooting a left and right, or couple from a kicking single, then changing targets and guns, shooting something easier and totally different, like a small centrefire with scope, concenrating on trigger squeeze and getting tiny groups until time to clean and or let it cool down. After that, I go back to the double (or single) and fire a couple more on top of the first two. I find more times than not, I don't get the flyers that make me think there's something wrong with the load & get a truer representation of what the big one is really doing. We are there to test and develope accurate loads, not to test endurance.
: This system works well(for me), even with a little .458.
: Another thing I found, is to grip the forewood in the left hand as if in a hunting position. The left had rests on the bag merely to steady the sights and get a good hold for load and sight testing. This changes the recoil impetus to the same as if in hunting situations. This goes for all kickers. My .458 needed re-sighting to have bullet impact actually be true. I had to raise bullet impact by 4" compared to the bullet impact if the gun was allowed to bounce off the bags. Some guns create even high impacts if not held, like a little .45 Colt M94 Trapper. It delivered excellent 1-1/2" groups at 100yards, whereas if allowed to bounch with traditional bench techniques, gave erronious grouping, flyers and extremely high impacts, 12" over what a held gun did. BTW - there's no flies on a 320gr. to 340gr. cast and properly sized rifle bullet doing 1,700fps from a 16" barrel. It took 2 elk for me in good fashion. Had I not re-tested with proper holoding techniques, I'd have missed.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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450
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Re: 12 bore bullets or molds [Re: DarylS]
      #69706 - 18/01/07 07:37 AM

Daryl S.

Thanks for that advice. I will try that.

It also explains a couple of things that happened on the weekend. I sighted in my Rolling Block 45.70 with 300 grain Hornady's and 70 grains of BP. Sighted it in over the bench resting it on the sand bag. Ripper. Then when shooting it off hand in competition, it shot the group 3" low at 50 yards. The same thing happened with my Martini 310 Cadet. It looks like I will be conducting some experiments at the range on the next visit. Will let you know how it goes.

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Yogi000
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Re: 12 bore bullets or molds [Re: DarylS]
      #70257 - 27/01/07 07:16 AM

I just ordered a round ball mould from Tanner in .724. The bores of my double barreled smoothbore slug gun are .724 so I am hoping for improved accuracy over the .715 round balls I bought 'off-the-shelf' and was not ecstatic with their 50 yard accuracy.

I intend to utilize some of the excellent advice from people here to mold up some wheel weighted round balls and by playing with some wads hopefully get a deep penetrating accurate show stopper for game such as bear with this new RB that matches the bore diameter. I still plan to use the carriage (the spent shot shell with petals cut off and flipped upside down) to hold the RB on its flight down the barrel.

In a smoothie the round ball is just so darn.... er... pragmatic... Can you make things any simpler? And if the round ball has worked for decades why are so many modern shooters poo-poo-ing it's ability to smack down a bear or a moose or a hog or even other Dangerous Game? Does the critter with big teeth really die faster with a boolit to the brain or a massive RB to the brain when it is charging at 20 feet?

I think the RB is a beautiful thing. .724 diameter in pure lead should be about how many grains? I know WW addition will be a tad lighter but still a lotta momentum when they strike.

Edited by Yogi000 (27/01/07 07:19 AM)

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DarylS
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Re: 12 bore bullets or molds [Re: Yogi000]
      #70446 - 30/01/07 03:06 AM

.724" should weigh almost 600gr. in Ww metal and well over that in pure lead.
: People 'poo poo' the RB as you say, Yogi, due to lack of knowledge and of merely repeating 'things' they hear, as in "punkin balls are inaccurate". Before one can honestly say these things and bear listening to, they must try them out to the best they can offer, then make a decision. Same goes for the current 'trend' to bash the .458 WMag.
: Factory loaded in shotshells as a .690" diameter in a 12 bore was the main cause for round balls being inaccurate, along with the use of normal card wads. The card wads don't hold the ball in the middle of the bore, so it bounces back and forth in it's travel down the bore, hense inaccurate flight.
: With plastic cup wad bases facing forwards, the smaller balls can be accurate as the cup holds the ball in the middle. This is the method I used and it works. Cut-down steel shot wads are possibly really good for this, as much heavier built and they're stronger. My RB success was with range pickup at the trap club. The don't have to be pretty to work. I put one cup down on the powder, one cup up to hold the ball centred. I used cards or fire inbetween depending on the column needed to get proper crimp height. Standard star crimps worked for me.
: A solid round ball is very much superior to a hollow based 'Foster' slug in penetrative power.
: A .724" ball will exit a moose if driven at 1,500fps. For such a large surface to punch thorugh that elastic hide on the far side, is really somthing and demonstrates wonderful penetration, something most modern expanding rifle bullets won't do, even with their higher velocities and much smaller diameters.
: I tell you, there is little in the modern ctg. line, that staggers a big game animal like a 12 bore round ball. They are rather decisive. The big "WHOK" when they hit is really something to hear.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Yogi000
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Re: 12 bore bullets or molds [Re: DarylS]
      #70541 - 31/01/07 06:09 AM

Daryl---

As always your input is valuable. Thank you.

I was guestimating but glad to hear I underestimated. I like knowing the .724 solid lead round balls should come out to be approx 600 grains!

600 grains at 1500 fps should be quite a whacker. The Brenneke's are about that weight, so if I can get a round ball at that same weight flying POA I think I'm well set for stopper shotgun. On hand I have two different powders: PB and Super Field. I have a bunch of Fiocchi Hulls that come with Fiocchi 616 primers. The last time I loaded up some .715 round balls I used 32 grains of PB and according to Ballistic Products that should have delivered about 1450 fps.

Any better (slighty faster) hull or powder combo that I could use other than the PB powder?

I hear yout testimony to the staggering power of a punkin' ball. I know you have heard a few of them hit moose meat.

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Re: 12 bore bullets or molds [Re: Yogi000]
      #70989 - 08/02/07 07:53 AM

Is there a difference in the diameter of a 12 bore gun compared to a 12 gauge shotgun?

Obviously most shotguns have chokes but excluding the choke restriction.

Also I noted 450 said his RB's measured .735 while his bores measured .729, which would indicate a .006" size difference where the RB is BIGGER than the bore it is being fired through.... I thought .003 was about the max you could have a RB oversized... Will the lead actually deform that much to allow such an oversized "slug" to squeeze down and shoot out of a smaller-than-ball-diameter bore?

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DarylS
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Re: 12 bore bullets or molds [Re: Yogi000]
      #71113 - 10/02/07 03:12 AM

In 1910, the nominal size for a 12 bore shotgun, is .725", .727" and .729". Different sources differ in specs. Today, with special boring to relieve recoil, etc, back boring, whatever, many run around .735" to .740".
: 12 bore rifles can run from about .730" to .750" on the grooves depending on depth and orginal bore size. This is how I understand the situation. There were no SAMMI specs., although good gun makers were very capable of making all their high-grade guns to 'exact' sizes if ordered so. Most good quality guns came with ball or bullet moulds for that particular gun and some even had swages for exact fit of bullets for the barrel.
: With damascus barrels, sometimes there would be irregualrities or inclusion, pits in the weld or other annomlies which required additonal boring, which enlarged the bore some to considerably. I am not aware of 11 bore rifles - they were either 12+ or 10 bore. Seems to me, some guns had marks on the table or bottoms of the slightly oversize 12 bore barrels with a + sign along with the 12 to show whether the bore was larger than standard.
: Were the bores of RB's gun .727" or was the groove diameter .729"? .006", which is .003" per side is considerably oversize for a .729" groove diameter. I suspect the gun would prefer a smaller ball, perhaps .730" at most.
; If the ball is soft, it will reduce to fit, but will raise pressure and change harmonics. My best accuracy from smoothbores has been with balls of correct size to the bore.
: Look to the cape guns and paradox rifles, with a ball or quite substancial slug traveling over 1,000fps when hitting the rifled choke at the end of the barrel. Swaging the ball into the rifling at the breech upon inital firing would be less hard on the gun, I am sure, certainly less hard on the soldered together barrels. I would size (swage) the balls or use groove diameter balls.
: When I cast up balls for my friends to use in their pump action duck guns, we made sure they could push the undersized balls and patches through their chokes easily. This led to impressive groups at 50 yards (considering the double barrel-beads), and more than one dead moose, shot from the duck blind.

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Re: 12 bore bullets or molds [Re: DarylS]
      #71305 - 12/02/07 10:28 AM


I have not got any of the orginal RB that I started with, so I cannotre measure them. The new mould cast round balls 0f .732-.733. and they weigh 560 grains. I will be heading up to the rainge next week with these to see how they go. I will get back toyouwith the results.

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Re: 12 bore bullets or molds [Re: DarylS]
      #75928 - 08/04/07 09:47 PM

After fair bit of testing in the Marlin, (not Mossberg as originally stated) I have worked up some nice loads.
At the range yesterday,I fired some 732 cast lead balls loaded in new winchest cases, plastic wad with the petals cut off and a 1/2 felt wad over load of AP 100 N and a roll crimp. The bestgroup I got over the benchwas 1 1/2" for three shots. They averaged 2 1/4 at 50 yards. I am trying to get access to a chronograph to see how quick thye are going.

With a 726 grain parodox projectile I have settled on AP100N with the above wadsfor groups of 2 1/2 inches at fifty yards. They are comfortable to shoot.

AP100N is I think not quite as slow as blue dot. As soon as Iget to a Chronograph I will post the velocities.

Thanks for you advice Daryl s.

Wayne

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DarylS
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Re: 12 bore bullets or molds [Re: 450]
      #76035 - 10/04/07 02:00 AM

Wayne - sounds very good. I know Hogdon rifle powders are made there - how about the shotgun powders? I think it's 'Longshot' listed in loading manuals for shot loads, shows velocities to 1,585fps with 1-1/4oz(or more) shot. Even at that high velocity, I think they were loaded to 11,000PSI, which is still well under max pressure in a typical modern shotgun. This powder should do well with RB loads in a modern shotgun or nitro proofed paradox gun.
; A .715" ball of pure lead weighs 545gr., which is 1-1/4 ounces, so the .724" ball should weigh perhaps 580gr. Drop about 30gr. to 40gr. for WW alloy.
; Remember that the normal paradox load was doing roughly 1,300fps, same as the standard 12 bore load. The heavy 12 bore load, using 190gr. black powder, did just over 1,500fps. That 1,500fps kicks pretty hard in an 8 pound gun, but can be duplicated with smokeless powder(in nitro guns) which kicks about 1/2 (or less) as hard - seems incredible to see the same velocity readings on the chronograph, with so little recoil. The BP loads will get your attention & FEEL so much more powerful. What they do, is to throw copious amounts of smoke andthe recoil gives the feeling of immense power - which is fun in itself. Perhaps the BP loads show us the 'real' power. I do know the game feels it too.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Re: 12 bore bullets or molds [Re: DarylS]
      #76082 - 10/04/07 11:00 AM

Daryl s
I am unable to get Hodgdon Longshot here. There is no comparison on the ADI powder chart. AP 100 has the same burning rate as SR 4756, which I cannot get here either. I cannot find any loading data for this powder. AP 100 is slightly quicker than Hodgdon HS.6. ADI do not list AP 100 in any shotshell loads so you can see why it is taking a while to come up with some comparable loads.
AP70N has the same burning rate as Universal and SR 7625. With 1 1/4 loads 24.9 grains of AP70N is listed at 1300 FPS with 11358 PSI.This is the only loading data reference I have to compare the RB loads and what information you have greatly supplied.

In Wright's book Shooting the English Double Rifle there is a section on the Parodox. One load is 760 grain paradox projectile loaded with 34.5 AP100 with Winch cases and wads for 1100 Fps. Pressure is listed as 3 tons. What does that work out in PSI. I have used this load as a basis for working up some loads. AP70N gives high velocity but is 3.25 tons. It is hard to compare it to modern loading data without knowing the comparison of Tons per square inch and pound per square inch. Can you help. I would like to keep my loads to a maximum of 11.000 PSI.

Another factor when comparing the paradox gun to the Marlin is that the Parodox is smooth bore until the last 4 " or so of barrel where as the Marlin is fully rifled. How will this effect pressure?

As a side note, my daughter who is in Vancouver for 5 months tells me it is a beautiful country. I hope to get there one day.

Bob.
I would be happy with 1300 fps out my 560 grain RB. I have a chronograph on the way to help with load developement. As soon as the results come in I will post them here.
Wayne

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DarylS
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Re: 12 bore bullets or molds [Re: 450]
      #76156 - 11/04/07 02:41 AM

Wayne - they are talking about long tons here, as in 2,200pounds per, so the pressures they are talking about are well under modern shotshell smokeless levels.
: I did well with both 4756 and 7625, 4756 being the slower burning of the two. I was so impressed with the velocities Hogdon was getting from it's longshot, that I mentioned it just hoping something was similar for you. Of course, the main problems come from getting proper wad pressure and getting the various slower powders to ignite and burn properly. Plastic wads supposedly eliminated the wad pressure loadings with shot, but since we use built up wad columns in RB loads to get proper height, we're back to loading the way the 'old timers' had to, wiht wad pressure.
: Vancouver is OK if you like crowded areas, wierd people and rain. I prefer fresh air and sunshine. I lived in the Vancouver area for a number of years. It is truely beautiful when the sun shines, though.
: When working from load data derived from shotshells and shot, we must tread softly, and carefully. A chronograph helps us stop when we've arrived at a suitable level of power.
; I would check out all or the data I could on available powders and choose one (or more) that developed the best velocities at the lowest pressures. These will normally show as being high-grain weight charges. ie: 20gr. giving max load at say 1,200fps(trap speed) with 1-1/8oz at 11,000 pounds compared to 28.0gr. giving 1,340fps with 1-1/4oz at 8,800 pounds pressure. The powder developing 1,340fps at 8,800pounds would be perfect for developing ball loads, whereas the 'faster' burning powder isn't.
; Forgot to mention - re: rifling - a fully rifled bore should devlope more breech pressure than a paradox or rifled choke on a smooth bore.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Edited by Daryl_S (11/04/07 02:46 AM)

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Re: 12 bore bullets or molds [Re: DarylS]
      #76174 - 11/04/07 07:32 AM

Daryl s

In relation to wad pressure, I am using a winchester 1 1/8 oz plastic wad with the petals cut off over the powder and a 1/2 felt wad on top of that which gives me the correct height in the 2 3/4 case for the roll crimp. I am using an old MEC to give me wad pressure. I have ordered a Chronograph to help with the load development.
It is very hard to judge when you have reached a maximum load as there are no pressure signs like you get in a rifle, so I am treading very careful. The load given in Wrights Book on shooting doubles if it is 3 tons = 6,600 pound taking into account that the Marlin is fully rifled, should give me a safety margin if I use that load.

My Paradox mould will be here by the end of the month. .729 and a nominal weight of 735 grains. It is a hollow nose. This should not be to much different with the one I have borrowed.

Since ADI has been producing powder for the home market, it has been difficult to get any other brand. I can Alliance powders, but IMR, Hodgdon winchester are a thing of the past now out here.

In your opinion, what would be a safe achievable velocity for the RB in the Marlin (Fully rifled barrel) taking into account that it will be used on pigs, deer and competition as a bore gun. I was going to look at 1300fps, but would be interested in you view.

Wayne

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Re: 12 bore bullets or molds [Re: 450]
      #76240 - 12/04/07 05:01 AM

: I wouldn't be afraid to tackle most big game with a 1,300fps load with a solid round ball. You should be able to approach and possibly beat 1,500fps. I did, wihtin what appeared to be safe pressures.
: That 1,500fps load is a smasher, much more than needed for deer and perhaps pigs, but then, pigs grow teeth and a shield plate over the vitals, perhaps depending on the pigs in question. I've no experience with wild hogs, only the domestic types running up to 800-900 pounds. They'd take a lot of killing, I'd think - definitely a 1,500fps load animal.
: I'd think the RB for a rifled barrel should be groove diameter exactly, with a hard card or cupped plastic wad underneath it. With the fully rifled barrel, a card is probably all that's necessary.
; Lyman makes and sells a roll crimper that is used with a drill press or electric drill. The spinning action turns the plastic over nicely to perform perfect crimps, with practise.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Re: 12 bore bullets or molds [Re: DarylS]
      #76446 - 14/04/07 01:27 AM

A friend of mine molded up some round ball slugs for me with a .724 mold using lead with very high tin content. The slugs weigh 27.3 grams which is incredibly leight! The .715 diameter round ball all lead slugs I have weight 28.5 grams.

These high tin slugs seem very hard as well. They look beautiful but it is quite difficult to dent or scratch them. I am guessing 30% tin??? I don't know for sure but they are so light they have to have a high percentage of tin verses LEAD.

I am reluctant to shoot these out of my .724 smooth bore shotgun because I am concerned about scratching the barrels.

Is this a valid concern, do you think?

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DarylS
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Re: 12 bore bullets or molds [Re: Yogi000]
      #76568 - 15/04/07 06:33 AM

It's unlikely you'll scratch the bores as good steel can be shot with steel jacketed solids (Rigby) from the turn of the century and later double rifles.
: Their light weight will reduce SD and BC, along with reducing penetration. They'll slow faster and will be more susceptable to wind drift.
: They would be more valuable for adding to a WW mix or with pure lead to increase the flow and help with filling out the mould. I wouldn't shoot them, but I also wouldn't be afraid of a modern steel barrel being harmed by them.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Yogi000
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Re: 12 bore bullets or molds [Re: DarylS]
      #76724 - 17/04/07 03:49 AM

Thanks for the reinforcement. I'll use your advice and NOT load them... They are pretty to look at, but so darn light I couldn't actually bring myself to load them up.

The idea about putting them in with a pure lead batch to increase the tin a couple of percent is a very wise idea.

I kept telling this guy I wanted a HEAVY round ball... one that is heavier than the .715 diameter RB's... Instead these larger round balls are actually significantly LIGHTER!!!

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DarylS
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Re: 12 bore bullets or molds [Re: Yogi000]
      #76791 - 18/04/07 12:09 AM

Many years ago, I followed the old time practise of adding murcury to the pure lead for hardening and increasing the specific gravity all in one fell blow. While it increased the weight some small amount, it didn't seem to make them harder. I would not try it today, seeing as how the fumes are so poisonous and all.
: Adding a small amound of antimony is the best method of increasing hardness, as tin is slow in doing so. 5% antimony will harden pure lead more than 10% tin mix, yet will be heavier as well.
: My .684" balls went from 480gr.pure lead, down to 466gr. in straight WW t's. This drop of 14gr. wasn't much and they shot identically to pure lead. Blowing through both shoulders of a bull moose with hardly a mark on the ball, constitutes good performance for a 'solid'. Can you picture a 12 factory slug doing that?

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Re: 12 bore bullets or molds [Re: DarylS]
      #77451 - 26/04/07 12:55 PM


Shot my RB loads through the Chonograph yesterday. 560 grn RB 1200 fps with really good accuracy.
The 726 grain Parodox slug was doing 1100 fps with accuracy not quite as good as the round ball. These were all loaded with ADI AP100 which is just slightly quicker than Blue Dot.

The load consist of new Winchester 2 3/4" cases, powder, WW plastic wad with the petals cut off over the powder, 1/4 felt wad, projectile and then roll crimped. With the round ball deviation over four shots was 9fps. With the slugs it 48 fps. A bit more reloading still to be done.

Wayne

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Al_in_Mi
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Re: 12 bore bullets or molds [Re: 450]
      #77485 - 27/04/07 01:44 AM

Wayne, have any pics of the paradox slug?

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DarylS
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Re: 12 bore bullets or molds [Re: Al_in_Mi]
      #77488 - 27/04/07 02:27 AM

Cool Wayne - but that round ball is not going very fast. With such a slow powder, you should be able to develop some good ballistics - time will tell.
: Say - with Hodgdon powders made in your Country, how about 'Longshot', shotgun powder? Perhaps that is what you are using? It's shotshell published data here shows 1 3/8 Oz. shot doing well over 1,500fps. That being the case, you should be able to easily match that with round balls. They will make a truely a great load.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Re: 12 bore bullets or molds [Re: DarylS]
      #77775 - 01/05/07 08:24 AM

Daryl S

Yep, more experimenting. At least I have got some where to start now. I will look up "longshot" but there is no ADI load listed for 1 3/8 ounce loads. It all stops at 1 1/4 ounce and the slower powders AP100 does not get a mention in the shotgun section. I got it out of Wrights Book on "Shooting the English double Barrel Rifle". I Will keep you posted.

Al in Mi

If you look at an earlier post on this thread by Marrakai you will see a picture of the Mould and the Paradox projectile used. My mould is arriving next week.

Wayne

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