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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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Mike_McGuire
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Reged: 11/06/05
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Loc: Sydney Australia
Question on Double Rifles
      #35259 - 31/07/05 02:26 PM

On the Searcy site it says the action is

Anson & Deeley

Is that a "brand" or a "type" of action as in Mauser type bolt action etc.

Mike

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André
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Re: Question on Double Rifles [Re: Mike_McGuire]
      #35260 - 31/07/05 06:22 PM

Type ! As great a classic generic name as Mauser.

--------------------
André
---------------------------------
3 shots do not make a group, they show a point of aim or impact.
5 shots are a group.

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DUGABOY1
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Re: Question on Double Rifles [Re: Mike_McGuire]
      #35275 - 01/08/05 04:16 AM

They are A&D design, and are made, and improved by B. Searcy from scratch. Most doubles today are either A&D, or WEBLEY designs, but made by the co. building the rifles, or bought from an action maker in the white, to be finished by the rifle maker. The barrels, and barrel sets are usually not made by the rifle maker either, and in the case of Searcy's, the barrels are, I believe, Pac-Nor. Over history, very few rifle makers made their own action, or barrels, and even the ones that did, made copies of the A&D, and Webley actions, but usually fitted the parts together, made in the rough, by others.

The thing with Searcy actions, the roughed out parts are done on CNC machines, and can be reduced, or enlarged to what ever chambering the buyer wants. Simply program a reduction of 20% and you have an action that is 20% smaller, and vice-versa. This is a big cost saver. However, the fitting is done by hand exactly the way it always has with double rifles.

Searcy rifles are not Purdeys, and Butch himself, will tell you that, but they do not cost what a Purdy costs either. There is one thing you can be sure of, nobody makes double rifle that is more accurate than a B. Searcy, regardless of the name engraved on it!


--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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mickey
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Re: Question on Double Rifles [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #35283 - 01/08/05 09:19 AM

In reply to:

There is one thing you can be sure of, nobody makes double rifle that is more accurate than a B. Searcy, regardless of the name engraved on it!



Mac

Why do you say that?

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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Mike_McGuire
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Re: Question on Double Rifles [Re: mickey]
      #35286 - 01/08/05 09:59 AM

So the double rifles are somewhat similar to Echols taking a Model 70 action as a starting point and using Kreiger barrels. A lesser gunsmith than Echols might also use the M70 and Kreiger as his basis.

What differences would someone see between Purdey and Searcy guns. Would it be just a difference in level of finish, wood, engraving etc.?

Mike

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mickey
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Re: Question on Double Rifles [Re: Mike_McGuire]
      #35288 - 01/08/05 11:17 AM

Mike

You are on the right track but the level of craftsmanship needed to finish a Double properly is far greater than that needed to finish a Bolt Action.

The difference between the fit and finish on a Purdy and a Searcy (your example) is also significant. I think you would also notice a definite difference in handling characteristics but that is subjective.

As to engraving, look at the pictures of the Searcy engraving on the other thread and then check out a Purdey and judge for yourself.

Money does talk.

By the way, nice troll for a dust up.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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Mike_McGuire
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Re: Question on Double Rifles [Re: mickey]
      #35289 - 01/08/05 11:37 AM

Mick

On the subject of engraving and say an action that has receiver and floor plate engraving and animal head on the floor plate...is there a rough dollar figure where the law of diminishing returns starts to show itself.

For example Weatherby (not Crown Custom) is about $2000US. Would that be real shit or would it be a case that it would take a keen eye to see much difference between it and $10,000US or whatever the upper dollar figures would be.

At the risk of being banned from the site for what I am about to say Searcy to me is similar to Weatherby. By that I mean the Searcy and Custom Shop Wbys are very expensive compared to the average gun but are at the very low price end of the expensive stuff.

My guess is that a rifle (or car) that is about 2 to 2.5 times the price of the average sees 97% of people out. If look at the large forums like AR there are very few rifles owned that are dearer than the Wby Accumark or Rugers in 375 and 416. At the top end it appears that about $7000US to $15000US sees out any non English made gun.

Mike

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mickey
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Re: Question on Double Rifles [Re: Mike_McGuire]
      #35291 - 01/08/05 01:02 PM

In reply to:

On the subject of engraving and say an action that has receiver and floor plate engraving and animal head on the floor plate...is there a rough dollar figure where the law of diminishing returns starts to show itself.



Of course, but the quality would determine that. A Rembrant will cost more than a DeGoode. As in most things, the original buyer may not recieve his investment back.

In reply to:

For example Weatherby (not Crown Custom) is about $2000US. Would that be real shit or would it be a case that it would take a keen eye to see much difference between it and $10,000US or whatever the upper dollar figures would be.



The difference between a $2000 engraving and a $10,000 engraving is substantial. The ability of the engraver if both coverages are equal or the amount of coverage if the engravers are equal.

In reply to:

At the risk of being banned from the site for what I am about to say Searcy to me is similar to Weatherby. By that I mean the Searcy and Custom Shop Wbys are very expensive compared to the average gun but are at the very low price end of the expensive stuff.



Perhaps

In reply to:

My guess is that a rifle (or car) that is about 2 to 2.5 times the price of the average sees 97% of people out. If look at the large forums like AR there are very few rifles owned that are dearer than the Wby Accumark or Rugers in 375 and 416. At the top end it appears that about $7000US to $15000US sees out any non English made gun.



There are many Euro guns over that figure. AR and the other large sights speak much louder for the average than the special.



--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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Mike_McGuire
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Re: Question on Double Rifles [Re: mickey]
      #35292 - 01/08/05 01:15 PM

There are many Euro guns over that figure. AR and the other large sights speak much louder for the average than the special.

I think that is partly true. Sites like AR and also this site give the impression that there is a 9.3 X 62 behind every bush and a 404 behind every second bush.

I was having a conversation with John S the other day about selling rifles. The calibre I have sold or have had sold for me most often is the 375 H&H. The strange thing was that I had two of those light weight Rem 700 Classics and a Wby stainless/synthetic that was from the first batch of Made in USA rifles to come to Australia and those three 375s gave ne the quickest sale and with the highest percentage of new purchase price. I think just about everyone would agree that the Rem 700 and Weatherby Mark V are not good candidates for 375 H&H.

The forums suggest that one would be licky to be able to give those rifles away.

Mike

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Question on Double Rifles [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #35293 - 01/08/05 01:15 PM

In reply to:

Most doubles today are either A&D, or WEBLEY designs



Can anyone explain the actual difference?

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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Mike_McGuire
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Re: Question on Double Rifles [Re: mickey]
      #35294 - 01/08/05 01:38 PM

Mick,

Off topic but good for a laugh.

Go to the last post on this thread page and guess who that is. The 460 he is talking of he bought from me...Mike

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=bigbores&Number=470130&page=0&fpart=2

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mickey
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Re: Question on Double Rifles [Re: Mike_McGuire]
      #35295 - 01/08/05 02:29 PM

Mike

Would that be Col? The last time I saw him we went to Siegfreid and Roy together with some other friends in Las Vegas.

I have a friend with a 460, not picked out by RW or you, that says he can't get enough powder in the case to get 2700fps. Have you been able to?

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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Mike_McGuire
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Reged: 11/06/05
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Re: Question on Double Rifles [Re: mickey]
      #35298 - 01/08/05 02:59 PM

Mick

No, it is JWs

In the 460s with the Pendeton Dekicker which probably makes for about a 23 or 23.5" barrel out of the 26 inch barrel I found a bit over 2600 was the start of an ejector mark and that was with IMR 4350. It is also interesting to note that Weatherby have dropped their claimed velocity back to 2600 and that would be from a 26 inch barrel. In general I would say Wby claimed velocities represent the maximum obtainable from the calibre. However, unlike many others I have never found Wby factory ammo to equal claimed velocites and was generally about 100 f/s under the maximum. But then I use an Oehler rather than a velocity enhancing Chrony Get a Chrony in the wrong light and you can turn a 30/06 into a 300 Winchester.

So I could get enough IMR 4350 in the case to reach excessive pressure. About 120 grains or so as I remember and velocity about 2620. Powder compression starts at about 115 grains. If you put a 115 grains in a fired case and a 500 Hornady will rest on the powder and the cannelure will be about where it should be.

A strange thing is the 450 Dakota. John S has one and so does a friend of his. John tells me that neither rifle will equal the velocities obtainable from the 460. I did question him as to whether that was brass but he said that was not the case. What was happening was when more powder was added there was no increase in velocity. Perhaps the huge freebore in the 460??

As a side note and on barrels. That 460 JW bought off me was one of two that were ordered from Roy W around 1973. A mate of mine bought one of them but did not shoot it. The rifle was stored at a fellow you might know out here who is a big collector of Pre 64s. I bought the rifle of my mate around the early 1990s and shot it for a couple of years before selling it to JW. As was the case with the first ine I bedded and floated it. But the second one that was stored unfired for 20 years was the better shooter.....it would just about shoot anything and a few of us put that down to the barrel sitting for 20 years. My bedding might have been better 20 years later but I don't think that was the case.

Also, the two rifles were ordered with the 2.5 X power Wby scopes with the two turrets on top. The scope on the rifle that had been stored for 20 years was stuffed.

Mike

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Marrakai
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Re: Question on Double Rifles [Re: Mike_McGuire]
      #35300 - 01/08/05 03:50 PM

Since this thread has already been skilfully hijacked by bolt-guns, and bloody Weatherbys no-less, I'm going to hijack it back to doubles. For those interested in following the exploits of the Greener .577 shotgun-conversion, I tossed up the latest chapter in the Australian Hunting forum here:

Latest Greener Story

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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DUGABOY1
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Re: Question on Double Rifles [Re: mickey]
      #35377 - 03/08/05 04:46 AM

In reply to:

There is one thing you can be sure of, nobody makes double rifle that is more accurate than a B. Searcy, regardless of the name engraved on it!


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Mac

Why do you say that?



Because I have shot a lot of double rifles,from almost all makers, both new, and old, high grade, and field grade, in large, and small chamberings, and I have never found one that shot more accurately than the B.Searcys I have shot!

This is not to say there are not many double rifles that are the equal, or better than a Searcy as far as finish, and some handle better, but the handleing feature depends on if the rifle fits the shooter only, and doesn't effect inherant accuracy. Some of his early ones were a bit muzzle heavy, but I don't find that to be the case today . The last one I handled was a PH model that was made for Ray Atkinson, and Ray's rifles always fit me, if they fit him. This PH model of Ray's handled almost as well as my Westley Richards doubles, at far less than half the cost.

As I said in my first post here, Butch himself will tell you he is not competing with the top names in England,new or old, but if you want a work double rifle, that shoots where you look, and stays together, fitted to your body,at a reasonable price, then B. Searcy is your rifle! PHs in Africa are picking the Searcy rifles up more and more, for backing their clients. That says somthing to me! There are doubles that I consider very good values for money spent, that sell for less than the Searcy,and I own a couple, but if I could make a level trade for a Searcy PH I would do it in a minute. I don't think the price is the only thing causeing PHs to buy the Searcy rifles, because they can buy new doubles cheaper, that are well worth the price paid. I think it is because word is getting around that the Searcys are reliable,accurate, and that Butch stands behind his product, nothing more!

I have no dog in this fight, and do not own a B. Searcy double rifle, but have shot several, and have never shot one that was not as accurate as one can expect from a double rifle of any make! Of course this is only one man's opinion, and is certainly not chizeled in stone any place I know of!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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mehulkamdar
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Re: Question on Double Rifles [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #35395 - 03/08/05 10:15 AM

In reply to:

Most doubles today are either A&D, or WEBLEY designs



In a revival of classic actions, Greener recently brought back their Facile Princeps action which was considered the strongest break open action among the classic designs and David MacKay Brown builds double rifles on the Dickson/MacNaughton Round action again. If I remember right, Purdey and Francotte make double rifles on Bar Action sidelocks even now.

Hopefully, this is the beginning of a new golden age of gunmaking.

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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mickey
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Re: Question on Double Rifles [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #35399 - 03/08/05 11:54 AM

Would anybody care to explain the differences between the Facile Princeps Action, the Webley and the A&D?

What would make one better or stronger than the others?

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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500Nitro
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Re: Question on Double Rifles [Re: mickey]
      #35414 - 03/08/05 03:57 PM


Mickey,

Wouldn't it be easier to refer people to the relevant pages in certain books
that explain it well ?

It is very hard to explain in words without pictures.

500 Nitro

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Peterb
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Re: Question on Double Rifles [Re: 500Nitro]
      #35434 - 04/08/05 07:29 AM

You can get upgraded engraving from Searcy, too.

The average big 3 (Purdey, H&H, Boss)London shotgun in field grade is over $50,000 now. add some nicer engraving and that is over $100,000. Lotys more for their rifles. Are they that much better? No. But they have names that are nearly two centuries old and that gets spendy. The big gun names are generally owned by clothiers now. That is where they make their money. Even with Purdeys at the price mentioned, the gun part of the business just breaks even now.

The English guns have better lines than the German & American guns but are heavier by around two pounds. My current Searcy is 9 1/2 pounds in a 470. I would not buy a 12 pound gun.

The coolest gun out there is a $40,000 Austrian double barreled bolt gun. Way cool, but even with titanium frames, they are 13 1/2 pounds. Too much but still way cool.

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mehulkamdar
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Re: Question on Double Rifles [Re: mickey]
      #35492 - 05/08/05 01:06 PM

Mickey,

The best literature that would describe these actions should be Greener's The Gun and its Development in one of the recent updated editions. I have, however, invited the new Greener company to comment on the Facile Princeps design as well as their relaunching of the Unique ejector system - these are the first guns being made to these grand old designs after WWII. I hope that they would respond soon.

Best wishes,

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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