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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles
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niftynero
.224 member


Reged: 07/05/18
Posts: 3
Loc: Iron Range Minnesota
375 FL NE 2 1/2, 405 Win in Charles Lancaster Falling Block
      #352373 - 13/04/21 12:19 PM

Have a situation, 375 Flanged NE 2 1/2 and 405 Win barrels for the same action, a Charles Lancaster falling block.

Back story: Charles Lancaster falling block was rebarreled (supposedly) by Holland & Holand to 375 FLNE 2 1/2 in 1923 and barrel is marked Cordite 40 - 300 MAX, then rebarreled again in 1960s to 405 Winchester with the firing pin bushed. I have both barrels, both have solid uninterupted thread. Gun has been fired with 405 WIN factory ammo (SAAMI) and 375 FLNE 2 1/2 published handloads.

CIP pressure for 375 FLNE 2 1/2 is listed as 2,200 BAR, 31.9K PSI and CIP pressure for the 405 Win is listed as 2,500 BAR, 35.5K PSI. 405 Win factory loads and the 375 FLNE 2 1/2 hand loads are higher than the CIP 375 FL NE 2 1/2 per CIP specs and my friends Qload data.

Action has been disassembled and inspected for damage and non was found. Locks up tighter than a fault.

My question is should I load the 405 Win to the 375 FLNE 2 1/2 CIP pressure or continue to use 405 factory loads ??? I think the 405 Win shoulkd be loaded to 375 FLNE 2 1/2 CIP pressures.

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3DogMike
.400 member


Reged: 29/01/15
Posts: 1464
Loc: Western Slope, Colorado USA
Re: 375 FL NE 2 1/2, 405 Win in Charles Lancaster Falling Block [Re: niftynero]
      #352374 - 13/04/21 01:03 PM

You didn’t say exactly which action your Lancaster rifle is based on?

Is it this one?
https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-f...un_id=101100060

If so, be aware that the action was originally made and proofed for a black powder cartridge, likely no more than “10 Tons” working pressure in the British system.
The .375 Flanged 2 1/2 is/was14.5 Tons
The .405 in modern Kynamco loads is 16.5 Tons

Both of these “modern” smokeless loadings are close to what the original proof loads were for the rifle as it originally was.

Now, yes, it (maybe) had passed a new Nitro reproof in 1923 and it should be marked as such with appropriate London or Birmingham reproof marks.
BUT.....that just means it passed proof....it does not mean that continued shooting with .405 or even .375FL NE will not shoot it loose or eventually crack parts.
After all, despite wonderful design and engineering they are 1870’s/1880’s iron and steel.

Sorry to say but:
Were it my nice old rifle, if keeping the .405 barrel in place, I would only use loads equivalent to the old black powder pressures. In other words equivalent to the grand daddy of the .405 the black powder .40-72 Winchester, and you could use appropriate smokeless loads if need be.
Refit the .375 barrel? Then I would go with .38-72 Winchester equivalent loads.

If the rifle still has the Lancaster serial number visible you can use this to estimate the date:
https://www.doublegunshop.com/dgsnos3.htm

I’m sure some others will chime in with their opinions.

Please share some pictures!
-Mike

--------------------
"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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3DogMike
.400 member


Reged: 29/01/15
Posts: 1464
Loc: Western Slope, Colorado USA
Re: 375 FL NE 2 1/2, 405 Win in Charles Lancaster Falling Block [Re: 3DogMike]
      #352395 - 14/04/21 12:39 AM

Nero,
One more thought.
Given that the barrels are both modern steel and much stronger than the original, there IS a way to shoot the .375 or .405 without beating up the action and breechblock. (Not that the ~140 year old stock might like .405’s)

“Back when”, P.O. Ackley experimented with backthrust on the bolt/locking lugs when firing a cartridge. (He used Winchester lever actions).

Mr. Ackley found that if a moderate pressure cartridge case (say less than 40,000 psi) and the chamber walls were clean and grease/oil free then upon firing the case would grip the chamber wall and not impart any force or backpressure to the bolt face.
He even went so far as to remove the locking lugs from the test rifles and when fired they would not even move the unsupported bolt back.
The only thing that backed up to the breechface was the primer.......the solid head of the cartridge case contained the pressure with no stretch or separation.

So if you were to thoroughly degrease the cartridge and chamber before shooting it likely would reduce or eliminate any potential stress on that old action. All the pressure is contained by the chamber walls and thick web of the case head.

There is the esoteric bit of thought for the day!

- Mike

--------------------
"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26992
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 375 FL NE 2 1/2, 405 Win in Charles Lancaster Falling Block [Re: 3DogMike]
      #352396 - 14/04/21 03:47 AM

In P.O.'s testing, he used a .30/30 m94.
The rifle was re-chambered to the .30/30 AckIMP & the whole test was to show that the straight sided case would grip
the chamber walls prevent thrust against the breech-block after the lug was removed. The contention was that with minumal
cast taper, the back thrust was greatly reduced. I do not know the 'taper' of the .375 nor the .405, offhand, without looking it
up. Ackley's "taper" was usually .014" to .015" total, or 7 1/2 thou per side.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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3DogMike
.400 member


Reged: 29/01/15
Posts: 1464
Loc: Western Slope, Colorado USA
Re: 375 FL NE 2 1/2, 405 Win in Charles Lancaster Falling Block [Re: DarylS]
      #352398 - 14/04/21 04:50 AM

Expanded good info from Daryl, thanks for that.
Just looked up the .375 2 1/2 and .405
The .375 is .059" total so .0295 taper per side
The .405 is .0244 total, so .0122 taper per side

Interestingly enough, if I degrease cartridge and chamber with Acetone my .375 2 1/2" Flanged Mannlicher will in fact grip the chamber on firing as one can measure/feel a small protrusion of the primer commensurate with about .002"-.003" headspace. If it did not grip, the primer would be pushed back in flush with the case head.
- Mike


--------------------
"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26992
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 375 FL NE 2 1/2, 405 Win in Charles Lancaster Falling Block [Re: 3DogMike]
      #352401 - 14/04/21 06:59 AM

Exactly correct, Mike.

It actually takes pressures in the 40,000CUP range to stretch the case at the web, to re-seat the primer.
There may be some case slippage, especially with lubed chambers or brass, but the re-seating usually comes from stretching at the web.
When fireforming wildcats that need the shoulder moved forward a small amount, I lube the cases before firing.
If you are using factory loads for brass, then will be handloading them, it is a good idea to wipe the case with a thin lube, like WD40 prior
to firing for the firs time, so that there is no stretch at the web.
Your brass will last longer.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Huvius
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Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 3555
Loc: Colorado
Re: 375 FL NE 2 1/2, 405 Win in Charles Lancaster Falling Block [Re: DarylS]
      #352402 - 14/04/21 07:58 AM

Quote:


If you are using factory loads for brass, then will be handloading them, it is a good idea to wipe the case with a thin lube, like WD40 prior
to firing for the first time, so that there is no stretch at the web.
Your brass will last longer.



Now THAT is some good advice!
I guess if I read more books on the subject, it wouldn't be such a revelation to me...

Back to the OP, I agree that good modern barrel steel does, in fact, mitigate the concern of using higher pressure cartridges than the original chamberings produced.
My understanding is that, with a clean greaseless case and chamber, the case adheres to the chamber walls at 10Kpsi.
I suppose at that point, the type of powder and the pressure curve produced by the specific load would have some bearing on how much breech thrust occurs before the adherence point is reached.
I also think that the cylindrical (more or less) form of the 375 and 405 cases helps in this regard.

All that said, your rifle is a classic, even if modernized with the new barrels so to speak.
There is no end of enjoyment shooting such a rifle at reduced loadings, more or less as it was built for.
If the 405 nitro loads are not to your preference, you could rechamber that barrel to 450/400 3-1/4" and load it to NfB pressures which would be more in keeping with the rifle's era.

Also, it would be great to have a competent smith make the rifle into a legitimate switch barrel.
That would be cool!

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26992
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 375 FL NE 2 1/2, 405 Win in Charles Lancaster Falling Block [Re: Huvius]
      #352408 - 14/04/21 09:29 AM

I would revel in the ballistics proffered by a SxS .40/82, especially with the opportunity to use heavier than factory bullets. I would think a 300gr. to 350gr. bullet with black powder, or a smokeless for black load would be super.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Waidmannsheil
.400 member


Reged: 19/04/13
Posts: 2443
Loc: Melbourne Australia
Re: 375 FL NE 2 1/2, 405 Win in Charles Lancaster Falling Block [Re: DarylS]
      #352409 - 14/04/21 10:47 AM

I believe that PO Ackley also took an Arisaka bolt action and progressively reduced the barrel thread diameter while firing factory ammunition to prove that a dry non-lubricated chamber and cartridge together resulted in virtually no back thrust. He continued until there was basically no thread remaining and the barrel never moved.

Another experiment was done with a shotgun which was held upside down with the top lever held open and the barrels did not move away from the action when firing, the weight of the barrels being enough to hold the action closed.

Matt.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.

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niftynero
.224 member


Reged: 07/05/18
Posts: 3
Loc: Iron Range Minnesota
Re: 375 FL NE 2 1/2, 405 Win in Charles Lancaster Falling Block [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #352781 - 28/04/21 05:27 AM

Thanks everyone for the info. Yes. that's the one. I'm more interested in good looking shooters than guns that should be in a museum. I would like to enjoy shooting them rather than have it sit in a rack to just look at. But, you have to treat these old guns with respect. 375 or 405, I have chosen to keep the pressure to 27KPSI or 15% below maximum average production pressures, or less, for both and 300 grain bullet as max. With modern powers, this is easily achieved while still retaining velocity for factory sight settings, well almost at distance.

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crshelton
.333 member


Reged: 10/11/15
Posts: 379
Loc: Republic of Texas
Re: 375 FL NE 2 1/2, 405 Win in Charles Lancaster Falling Block [Re: niftynero]
      #353726 - 25/05/21 07:37 AM

That is a very attractive rifle and should bring you a lot of pleasure.

If a shooter of modern .405 WCF could add a comment on peak chamber pressure?

When I began loading my Miroku/Winchester 1895 TD .405 WCF with the then new North Fork bullets, two things happened:
1. My older brother(a chemist and gun nut) introduced me to VV N133 powder, he told me of how it generally had 10,000 -12,000 lower pressure peak than most powders.
2. A very experienced loader and shooter with his own pressure testing equipment told me the same thing as my brother. He also mentored me on loading the NF bullets for best performance and suggested that I buy pressure testing equipment if I planned to push the upper limits on any cartridge.
3. I bought Pressure Test II and it really opened my eyes and helped me to safely explore some upper limit loads because N133 made those loads normal peak pressures, not upper limits.

One example was 400 a grain .405 load at 2100 fps which ran a peak pressure of 48,000 PSI with a good ball powder. It worked and I killed my Cape buff with it.
I then loaded the same bullet to the same velocity with N133 and the peak pressure was well below 40,000 PSI. I loaded this load for my .405 double rifle and it likes it.
A fellow shooter/hunter asked my advice on loading his .405 for Africa and I told him about N133. At last report he had the 400 grain Woodleigh up to 2157 fps and was heading for 2200.

IMHO, N133 should be considered for use in any rifle where a high peak pressure could be troublesome if not traumatic.

Please let us all know how your Lancaster works out for you.

--------------------
CRS,NRA Benefactor Member, TSRA, DRSS, DWWC, Whittington Center
Android Ballistics App at http://www.xplat.net/

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niftynero
.224 member


Reged: 07/05/18
Posts: 3
Loc: Iron Range Minnesota
Re: 375 FL NE 2 1/2, 405 Win in Charles Lancaster Falling Block [Re: crshelton]
      #361715 - 09/02/22 01:30 PM

Loaded up some lite loads, QL, of 3031 and 264 grain cast GC bullets to try. First 2 rounds were stacked at 50 yards but 4 inches high, then the following bullets spread out a bit. Very enjoyable to shoot.
Wish I had brought by labradar to measure speed, I know they were slow, now to work up with 3031, have read about some odd pressure spikes, and 4198. Got tied up with other things and winter set in. Now to wait for spring for my next try.

Thanks, guys, for the info and help.

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crshelton
.333 member


Reged: 10/11/15
Posts: 379
Loc: Republic of Texas
Re: 375 FL NE 2 1/2, 405 Win in Charles Lancaster Falling Block [Re: niftynero]
      #368930 - 03/09/22 07:37 AM

niftynero,
3031 was one of the powders for which I estimated a N133 equivalent so that I could "copy" a high velocity express load. I loaded and pressure traced the N133 loads.
First, no peaks, just a smooth curve.
Second, the highest point on the pressure curve was 12,000 PSI lower than 30301 peak!

No big deal for a modern high quality firearm, but ,,,, recoil and such ,,,

Important to me and I have moved on to the N133 "Express" 45-90 load. My .45-90 DR regulated with NF 350SS bullets that group nicely at 100 yards.


--------------------
CRS,NRA Benefactor Member, TSRA, DRSS, DWWC, Whittington Center
Android Ballistics App at http://www.xplat.net/

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