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EDELWEISS
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Reged: 22/11/05
Posts: 608
Loc: Gettysburg
Did Howdah HOLSTERS exist?
      #348614 - 29/12/20 12:53 PM

There are lots of pictures of Howdah pistols and lots of fine looking cased guns even cased sets; but I cant find any pics of holsters. Ive heard guys talk about the guns being stored on the actual howdah chair. I suppose thats possible but it seems unlikely that there wasnt some sort of carry method.

Early single barrel guns had belt hooks. Ive never seen a belt hook on a Howdah gun. Theres a very quick glimpse of a strong side belt holster being worn by Michael Douglas in Ghost and the Darkness. I suppose thats possible but I attribute that as much to Hollywood as to history. Triple K makes a simple holster for the Pedersoli BP pistol. Its crude by any standards and too short for the gun (leaving about 3" of barrel exposed). I certainly dont see a gentleman being satisfied with the Triple K design. A couple of leather companies make a bandoleer crossdraw rig for the 45/410 version. I doubt thats period either.

Given a choice Id want a crossdraw almost horizontal design. Thats a personal preference but it seems practical for sitting in a rocking howdah chair for long days and fast to grab in the excitement. Again thats just me; but it makes sense.

Any real holsters

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Re: Did Howdah HOLSTERS exist? [Re: EDELWEISS]
      #348618 - 29/12/20 01:19 PM

My bro says holsters for muzzleloading pistols rarely went the full length of the barrel and forend, thus that is how he makes his. They are short extending just to in front of the lock in most cases.
As the front sights are always swept forward, they draw easily from the holster's rather large body & don't hang up.
A hook is even handier, but exposes the lock area to the elements.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Did Howdah HOLSTERS exist? [Re: DarylS]
      #348619 - 29/12/20 03:05 PM

No idea of any Indian or Colonial gentleman wearing a howdah pistol like a cowboy. Never seen or read anything remotely like it.

The "howdah" pistols were a weapon to be used in the howdah, which is an elephant saddle. Often with a platform. The platform might be a seat, a box and a seat or just a box perhaps with a floor. The latter one knelt or sat on the box floor.

One of our members says a defining mark of a howdah is the hook or loop on the howdah pistols grip base. For a lanyard attaching it to the howdah saddle. I don't know if this is correct or not. And could well be true, ie the hook/loop. I do think a pistol hanging on a howdah saddle would be very annoying and would hang and bump continuously with the rocking motion that exists high up on an elephants back. I think an in situ holster would be more likely.

However I do picture the holster as not being full length, with the barrel ends exposed and the grip being pretty much exposed as well for easy access. There isn't much chance of rubbish getting into the muzzles on a downward facing in place howdah saddle holster. And far less moisture potential if the holster tip is open and airy.

Giving it some thought, when sitting on a howdah, any belt holster is also harder to get to, potentially anyway, with the body being bent sitting, or kneeling. A holster on the side of the platform is only a hand away.

I would rely on anything, much at all, being historically accurate in the "Ghost and Darkness" movie. Except for two maneater lions, the name Tsavo, a railway, a bridge, Indian coolies and an engineer named Patterson. That is about it. No mention of any howdah pistol in the book at all. And definitely not the ridiculous "Remington" character invented by Douglas to give him a "hero" character. The main commercial reason was to have an American character in a British East African historical story. Movies with an American character sell better in the USA.

Oh yes the strange cave filled with bones IS historically accurate. Believed by anthropologists to be a burial cave, rather than a place the lions took victims to. And a reason for the maneating lions, the native practice of leaving the dead in the bush outside a village to be eaten.

There were more than two maneating lions along the EA railway works. These two were infamous though at Tsavo.

It would be interesting to know REAL historical facts about howdah pistols, holsters etc. Rather than conjecture. The leather may well have rotted away over the hundred or two hundred years of any original.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Did Howdah HOLSTERS exist? [Re: NitroX]
      #348620 - 29/12/20 03:06 PM

BTW the cavalry ML horse pistols were also carried in a holster on the horse saddle as well. I believe.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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DarylS
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Re: Did Howdah HOLSTERS exist? [Re: NitroX]
      #348654 - 30/12/20 10:21 AM

One on each side, NitroX, known, of course as Holster Pistols or Horse Pistols as you noted.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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EDELWEISS
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Reged: 22/11/05
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Re: Did Howdah HOLSTERS exist? [Re: DarylS]
      #348656 - 30/12/20 12:33 PM

First, thanks for the replies. Now I mentioned Ghost only because it actually shows a Howdah. I dont know any other movie with a Howdah.

As far as saddle scabbards for horse pistols, Im pretty sure that phased out by the 1830s as the PRIMARY way to carry a pistol. There were belt holsters for the Colt Walker which is as large or maybe larger (lengthwise) than some Howdahs (likewise for the Colt Dragoons).

Yep the lanyard ring is a serious defining point for (me at least) on real Howdahs....BUT... a lanyard could just as easily mean it was attached to the owner rather than the basket. Ive ridden on an elephant (although NOT in India and NOT while hunting). Even the calm gentle swaying of my ride did not impress me as a spot where Id want to reach for a pistol under the stress of a Tiger climbing up to discuss a meal. Personally Id much prefer something on my person. Im also imagining being tossed (or falling) from the basket and realizing my pistol is on a hook up in the basket of the elephant running away.

Im a cop (or was until recently), I carried a gun on my hip since Jimmy Carter gave away the Panama Canal. A standard belt holster is OK for a 5" auto; but an almost horizontal crossdraw (driving holster) carries a 6+ inch revolver much more comfortably. I drove from PA to San Antonio TX wearing a 7.5" Freedom Arms 454C and hardly noticed itwhile sitting or walking during pit stops AND the crossdraw meant I could draw it while seated for the "xcuse me whilst I whips this out" moments (that thankfully never occurred).

Now none of that matters since I wasnt hunting Tigers in 19th century India and didnt have the benefit of looking back in history from a 21st century POV. However I have carried a Walker in a 19th century flap holster and getting in and out of a car was an experience not well planned. I cannot imagine how Id ever draw it.

Returning to the lanyard, if the pistol was worn like a modern One Point sling and stuck in my belt, that might be a working possibility. As for the idea of no holsters existing because of the fade of time, Id suggest that we have examples of leather goods from prior to the Civil War. Further Id expect that a fine Howdah owned by a wealthy gentleman would not be taken care of and likewise the holster--IF it existed. Im just finding hard to believe none actually did exist even if they were the saddle/pommel type BUT what do I know???

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DarylS
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Re: Did Howdah HOLSTERS exist? [Re: EDELWEISS]
      #348657 - 30/12/20 12:52 PM

Our issue revolvers were attached to our persons by a lanyard, whilst also being in a side holster. This was for "Dress" Uniform only. We did not wear the lanyard when on duty, but still had the flap-over-the-grip holster. I assume both the lanyard and holster flaps were to prevent loss while on horseback. That is something I never got to experience while working (riding horses) and obviously were 19h century holdovers.
Some things change slowly.


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LGF
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Reged: 27/04/05
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Loc: Kenya/Berkeley, CA
Re: Did Howdah HOLSTERS exist? [Re: DarylS]
      #348818 - 04/01/21 04:41 PM

To a US expat well familiar with the colonial history of East Africa, it was deeply embarrassing to see the insertion of a nonexistent American into what was already a dreadful movie about a remarkable true story. Even more embarrassing was the Hollywood movie about the capture of the Enigma machine by the British Navy in 1942: the producers made it the US Navy, assuming that American audiences have no interest in even our closest allies. They're probably right.

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EDELWEISS
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Reged: 22/11/05
Posts: 608
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Re: Did Howdah HOLSTERS exist? [Re: LGF]
      #348824 - 04/01/21 11:56 PM

Quote:

To a US expat well familiar with the colonial history of East Africa, it was deeply embarrassing to see the insertion of a nonexistent American into what was already a dreadful movie about a remarkable true story. Even more embarrassing was the Hollywood movie about the capture of the Enigma machine by the British Navy in 1942: the producers made it the US Navy, assuming that American audiences have no interest in even our closest allies. They're probably right.




Brother the sum total of all Hollywood's errors would require its own forum. I referred to that movie because its the ONLY movie where a Howdah is displayed AND with a holster. Perhaps THATS the greater shame, why dont we have more movies staring Howdah pistols?

As for being a US expat, Im thinking we might be seeing a few more with the way things are going here. Im regretting my decision NOT to leave for the RSA a few years ago.

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