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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Building Double Rifles & Gunsmithing

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DOUBLETHEFUN
.224 member

Reged: 21/03/05
Posts: 11
Loc: LONDONDERRY,NH USA

help with regulating
#34604 - 12/07/05 11:45 AM

ok, this is the problem i hope you all can help with. this is my first DR a merkel in 470ne so i don't know if this is a normal problem or not. I use rl-15 and woodleigh bullets. the best group i get for both left and right is 87gr. but they both are 4" low and about 3" left. if i use 90gr the right hits the bull every time. the left is lucky to get in the black. also i just got my solids in so i'm thinking useing the 90gr with rn in the right and try to get the solid to print in the left. is this normal? thanks.

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mickey
.416 member

Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho

Re: help with regulating [Re: DOUBLETHEFUN]
#34608 - 12/07/05 12:45 PM

You state the group is 4" low and 3" left but you don't say what the size of the group is.

How large is it at what distance?

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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DOUBLETHEFUN
.224 member

Reged: 21/03/05
Posts: 11
Loc: LONDONDERRY,NH USA

Re: help with regulating [Re: mickey]
#34610 - 12/07/05 01:04 PM

sorry, at 50yrds the group is almost touching.

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new_guy
Sponsor

Reged: 10/08/04
Posts: 581
Loc: Texas

Re: help with regulating [Re: DOUBLETHEFUN]
#34612 - 12/07/05 01:09 PM

How does it shoot with factory ammo?

Was it regulated w/Federal?

Have you chronographed either the factory loads or your reloads?

--------------------
www.heymUSA.com

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DOUBLETHEFUN
.224 member

Reged: 21/03/05
Posts: 11
Loc: LONDONDERRY,NH USA

Re: help with regulating [Re: new_guy]
#34613 - 12/07/05 01:21 PM

yes it was regulated with fed. but i have not shot them yet. with the 87grs i am getting 2087 with the 90grs 2160

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unspellable
.300 member

Reged: 06/03/04
Posts: 187
Loc: Iowa

Re: help with regulating [Re: DOUBLETHEFUN]
#34624 - 12/07/05 10:26 PM

How does it group with snap caps? You may have a little flinch going.

If you have someone stand behind you and load with either live ammo or snap caps and hand it to you without telling you which, any flinch will be obvious on firing a snap cap.

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Palmer
.224 member

Reged: 06/07/04
Posts: 15
Loc: Missouri

Re: help with regulating [Re: unspellable]
#34625 - 12/07/05 10:47 PM

I am an newbie also, but if my groups were touching at 50 yds and both low and left I would just move the sights to bring the group to the bullseye and stay with the 87 grain load.

--------------------
ALLEN W. JOHNSON

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clark7781
.375 member

Reged: 28/10/04
Posts: 612
Loc: Fairfax County, Virginia, USA

Re: help with regulating [Re: DOUBLETHEFUN]
#34626 - 12/07/05 10:52 PM

If it was regulated with Fed, I would invest in a box of that before I start moving sights..

--------------------
Clark

Double Rifle Shooters Society
.500 NE and .577 NE

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500Nitro
.450 member

Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia

Re: help with regulating [Re: DOUBLETHEFUN]
#34629 - 12/07/05 11:47 PM

DOUBLETHEFUN

Almost touching at 50 yards is fine. Before you do anything with the sights
try a box of Federal as already suggested.

Also, make sure it is NOT the way he sun / light is coming off the front sight
that is making it shoot low, left etc. The sight picture can change depending
on where the light comes off the sight.

Try to shoot a target with the sun / light DIRECTLY behind or in front of you.

Make sure you don't have a flinch - as already suggested.

ry shooting at te target in a STANDING, Forearm SUPPORTED Position
as opposed to off a bench.

Hope this helps.

500 Nitro

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jjs
.224 member

Reged: 08/03/05
Posts: 18

Re: help with regulating [Re: DOUBLETHEFUN]
#34630 - 12/07/05 11:48 PM

I also have a Merkel 470 Double. Mine was regulated with the Federal TB Sledgehammers, I would venture to say that your is also. Your DR should have come with a copy of the target shot with the load it was regulated for?

The Federal Factory loads I chronographed were over 2100fps with an extreme spread that was EXTREME...no filler and to little powder makes for this problem.

When I started reloading I wanted to stay away from fillers, wads, etc. I have been using H4831sc, Norma Brass, Federal 215 Match Grade Primers...no filler or wads!

I started by using the A-Square data and other sources to work up loads... started out with 108 grains of H4831sc. I worked up to 110 grains and that what I settled on...I shoots the Woodleighs Soft, North Fork Cup Points, Barnes Banded Solids all to POA at 50 yards with very good accuracy. My loads chronograph a nominal 2100fps with Woodliegh Softs, 2150fps with the Barnes Banded Solids, and 2170fps with the North Fork Cups....The H4831sc loads also work well in a couple of other Merkel 470's and a Chapius I know about... I will be using my load in Tanzania in a week on Cape Buff...first time with a DR and I am looking forward to it!

As always work up loads carefully!!!

Good luck, jjs

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new_guy
Sponsor

Reged: 10/08/04
Posts: 581
Loc: Texas

Re: help with regulating [Re: DOUBLETHEFUN]
#34631 - 12/07/05 11:54 PM

In reply to:

yes it was regulated with fed. but i have not shot them yet. with the 87grs i am getting 2087 with the 90grs 2160

First thing I would do is get a box of feds and see how well it shoots with them. Some guns simply leave the factory better regulated than others, and the federal ammo is the common denominator with your gun.

Also, chronograph the federal loads. Some guns have tighter chambers, bores, etc... and different velocities are possible with two of the same make, model, etc...

If it shoots well with the federals, then the problem is with your load. If it shoots poorly with the federals, then the problem is either you or the gun.

As this is your first double, it might help to have someone who has shot more of them to run a few through it. Not that you're a bad shooter, but they can be pretty finicky - even in how they are held.

For example one of those thick past recoil pads will move my groups up 1". Also one of my doubles tends to shoot a little low off the bench.

After you and a friend have shot the double, if the groups are still bad (and consistent between shooters), then you might contact Merkel. But I suspect that you'll see the groups improve with fed ammo.

FWIW, the gun should be shot with your forward hand grasping the barrels and that hand only touching the sandbags up front. Elevate the front bags enough that you are sitting up-right with the gun - not hunched over it like you might shoot a scoped bolt gun.

If the feds do shoot well, the work a little more with your laods to get a closer match to the chronod velocity of the feds.

Are you using woodleigh softs in your reloads? The shape an d profile of the bullet can also have an effect on the point of impact.

PS - welcome to the world of double rifle reloading! I assure you that your experience is not unique!

--------------------
www.heymUSA.com

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DUGABOY1
.400 member

Reged: 02/02/03
Posts: 1340
Loc: TEXAS USA

Re: help with regulating [Re: jjs]
#34640 - 13/07/05 08:59 AM

In reply to:

When I started reloading I wanted to stay away from fillers, wads, etc. I have been using H4831sc, Norma Brass, Federal 215 Match Grade Primers...no filler or wads!

I started by using the A-Square data and other sources to work up loads... started out with 108 grains of H4831sc. I worked up to 110 grains and that what I settled on...I shoots the Woodleighs Soft, North Fork Cup Points, Barnes Banded Solids all to POA at 50 yards with very good accuracy. My loads chronograph a nominal 2100fps with Woodliegh Softs, 2150fps with the Barnes Banded Solids, and 2170fps with the North Fork Cups....The H4831sc loads also work well in a couple of other Merkel 470's and a Chapius I know about... I will be using my load in Tanzania in a week on Cape Buff...first time with a DR and I am looking forward to it!

As always work up loads carefully!!!

Good luck, jjs

DOUBLETHEFUN , I'd agree with jjs on the use of H4831 in the 470 NE Merkel. The RL-15 is very good on some of the bottle necked .458s to convert to American powders from cordite,however, in the 470 the case capacity seems to tollerate the H4831 quite well with out fillers if used in 108 grs or larger charges under 500 gr bullets. I use fillers anyway, (dacron fiberfill) just enough so it is lightly compressed by bullet seating.

A load that "ALMOST TOUCHES" @50 yds is a pretty good load in a double rifle! The one thing you didn't mention is how your front sight is held in relation to the back sight of your Merkel. I have two Merkel double rifles, and I find the front sight needs to be held level with the "TOP",of the back sight, like a S&W pistol and centered with equal amounts of light on both sides! If you are burying the front bead in the bottom of the rear sight, then it would make it shoot low! The flinch, mentioned above may be what is pulling the group to the right or left of the aiming point!

I'd first try to modify my shooting, and sight picture first, and if that doesn't work, try the 4831!

Good luck, and let us know what you find!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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jjs
.224 member

Reged: 08/03/05
Posts: 18

Re: help with regulating [Re: DUGABOY1]
#34667 - 14/07/05 01:27 AM

DUGABOY1:

The sight picture you describe is right on with my Merkel as well.

A clarification, H4831sc is a bit slower burning powder than IMR4831, so these powder are not substitutes for each other. Generally, speaking with the slower burning H4831sc you can use a bit more powder...

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DUGABOY1
.400 member

Reged: 02/02/03
Posts: 1340
Loc: TEXAS USA

Re: help with regulating [Re: jjs]
#34672 - 14/07/05 07:55 AM

You are right jjs, I edited my post to reflect that! That is the trouble with posting loads on the internet, and that one isn't bad but some mistakes are quite dangerous!

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>H4831sc<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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DOUBLETHEFUN
.224 member

Reged: 21/03/05
Posts: 11
Loc: LONDONDERRY,NH USA

Re: help with regulating [Re: DUGABOY1]
#34677 - 14/07/05 12:50 PM

thank you all, i can't wait for this weekend's trip to the range. i'll post what i find out. I hope i can post what worked not more ????? thanks again.

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sbs470
.333 member

Reged: 15/04/04
Posts: 378
Loc: Sheffield Tasmania

Re: help with regulating [Re: DOUBLETHEFUN]
#34776 - 17/07/05 09:19 PM

A friend of mine has just bought a Merkel 9.3x74R and we tried to regulate it with a variety of loads suited for 9.3 doubles but to no avail.The right barrel was starting to come together but the left was still spraying around,after much soul searching and navel gazing we deduced that the triggers might be a bit heavy,so off to the doctors to check out the trigger pulls
Using an electronic trigger pull gauge with a maximum limit of twelve pounds we firstly tried the right barrel.It still had not fired when the gauge reached the twelve pound maximum.The left barrel is considerably heavier than the right (yes guys the saftey was off ).
I'll give a further report when we have both trigger pulls down to single digits
good luck
sbs470

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