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EDELWEISS
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Reged: 22/11/05
Posts: 608
Loc: Gettysburg

More Howdah fun......
#344162 - 09/08/20 08:46 AM

OK Im truly fixated and maybe just a bit warped when it comes to Howdah pistols. Im in the process of "building" my own version.

So now I need your help naming the cartridge. Im still up in the air as to what to use as a parent cartridge and the final bore size. Im toying with 450, 458, 500 and.... so think the bore size plus the name (as in 458 Lott)

Here are some of the cartridge names Ive come up with; but Im open to suggestions.

500 (Short) Nitro or 500 Nitro Short
500 Express
500 Panthera
500 Kurz
500 Sturm
500 Raj (going for the India feel)
500 Jagr
500 Shikaaree (Hindu for Hunter)
500 Sikari (Nepali for Hunter)
500 Sharpe (I guess I read too many Richard Sharpe novels)
500 Edel
500 Behold
500 Rogue
500 Manchester
500 Inferno
500 Fantom

Im torn between wanting a name that would be appropriate for a 19th Century cartridge and a Modern name

--------------------
If it's not custom, it's just borrowed

Edited by EDELWEISS (09/08/20 10:36 AM)

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EDELWEISS
.375 member

Reged: 22/11/05
Posts: 608
Loc: Gettysburg

Re: More Howdah fun...... [Re: EDELWEISS]
#344164 - 09/08/20 08:56 AM

I got the idea for a "new" cartridge when I saw an article about the 500 SPECIAL, which is made by shortening the 500 S&W Magnum. I had toyed with the magnum but I think its to much of a handful for a light pistol. So if Im shortening the case, why not consider shortening other cases, and if Im making a NEW cartridge, then why not name it something cool.

Im picturing a short fat cartridge (think fireplug) with a lead projo to start.

--------------------
If it's not custom, it's just borrowed

Edited by EDELWEISS (09/08/20 09:03 AM)

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tinker
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Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
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Re: More Howdah fun...... [Re: EDELWEISS]
#344168 - 09/08/20 09:28 AM

The 500JRH has quite a bit more ass than the 500 Special.
500 Special wouldn't be the best choice for a dangerous game cartridge.
Although there is sometimes confusion between 500 Special and 500JRH, they are different in terms of actual performance.
The 500JRH was developed specifically as a self defense cartridge for use in a side arm while in the presence of dangerous game.
Jack Huntington has personally taken the cartridge into herds of ridiculous bovine hooligans numerous times, to include Cape Buffalo in South Africa, as well as many other handgun hunters, in Africa and elsewhere.

It's an already done, already common, completely proven handgun stomper that's designed to operate in the lightweight holster revolvers like the Ruger Blackhawk and Redhawk and the Freedom Arms single action revolvers.

Also as I've noted, that Pedersoli 45lc/.410 side by side howdah running with blown out 9.3x74r brass (to get the bullets right up to the rifling in the long brass) could be a monster with big loads of powder.
In my Contender I've run well past 60 grains of rifle powder with 350gr bullets in the 9.3x74 brass. It gets hectic as the powder charges increase.

The 500JRH gets the 440 grain bullet going at 1400fps from a 5-1/2" revolver.
That's the kind of performance you need to deal with real dangerous game - and even there you're talking about compromise.

Just some things for you to ponder

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--

"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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EDELWEISS
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Reged: 22/11/05
Posts: 608
Loc: Gettysburg

Re: More Howdah fun...... [Re: tinker]
#344170 - 09/08/20 10:11 AM

All of your suggestions make good sense for the role you suggest EXCEPT Im not looking for the most ass. Im looking for something I can shoot, something thats bigger than a "conventional" carry handgun cartridge. I have magnums and a 454 Casull. Im sure 500JRH is a great round, Im just looking for something different. Then theres the current issue of getting ammo, specifically specialty cartridges. I have a source for 500SW brass and a saw...

Im NOT thinking of this as a hunting cartridge, rather a point blank stopping cartridge where even a 44mag would do. At THAT range, Im pretty sure the 500 Special would penetrate deep "enough" at bad breath range. If that doesnt work Ive considered the bottlenecks like a shortened 458 SOCOM.

Im hard pressed to know when Id ever be using it on anything bigger than Wild Boar or maybeeeee Black Bear climbing up my tree stand (another reason why it has to somewhat easier to control with one hand). Again NOT as a hunting cartridge; but as a stopping round meant for head shots at less than 10 feet. A number of years ago I had failed to stop a Boar with a 44mag BUT when he charged, I had an instant stop with a point blank hit (under 6 feet).

More to the point its a experiment meant to be fun. Thats why Im asking for help naming a baby

Edited by EDELWEISS (09/08/20 10:28 AM)

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tinker
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Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada

Re: More Howdah fun...... [Re: EDELWEISS]
#344171 - 09/08/20 10:38 AM

You're saying stopping cartridge.

And you're saying less power than a 500JRH.

I think you should reconsider the vernacular.

It's fun to play with new cartridges, and to wildcat cartridges.
It's also important to get perspective.

There's a group of fellows who have been having yearly gatherings in the company of big nasty bovine opponents, specifically for the purpose of testing handgun cartridges on animals who often display the interest in stomping them into grease smears in the dirt.
They call their group sessions the Bovine Bash.

It's been found that having simply enough energy to penetrate the animal's flesh is almost always not enough to get the job done of "stopping" the animal.

It appears to be necessary to not only smash through tough hide, big and sometimes interwoven bones, and tough flesh - and to reach and destroy the vital organs, but it's become apparent that it's also important to significantly hurt the feelings of the big nasty animals in order to turn them and to change their plans, and ultimately their direction.

44 magnum with seriously big powder charges over long and hard wide flat nose bullets can get adequate penetration. It takes *more* in order to hurt their feelings.

This is the common finding after hundreds of kills on huge nasty bovine opponents.

It's a lot easier to stop a big pig, or a large deer, or perhaps a determined black bear - but to call *any* handgun cartridge a Stopping Cartridge might be a bit of a reach.

Have fun with dreaming up a cool handgun project, but don't fool yourself while you are at it.

By the way, 500S&W can be a parent case for making 500JRH cases, and you can run 500 Special in the same lightweight revolver platform that the 500JRH is based on.
There's no practical or economical reason to limit yourself to the 500 Special when there are 500JRH reamers out there in the wild. It's the same gun, only the 500 Special limits you.

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--

"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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EDELWEISS
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Reged: 22/11/05
Posts: 608
Loc: Gettysburg

Re: More Howdah fun...... [Re: tinker]
#344172 - 09/08/20 10:45 AM

OK we can call it a George pistol if that helps. I get what it takes to penetrate and smash in order to STOP; but I also know a 38spl will split a skull at contact range. Again I appreciate your knowledge BUT thats not the point of this post.....

It was supposed to be about picking a NAME for a fun cartridge. At this point Im wondering if I should call it the 500 Nevermind???

--------------------
If it's not custom, it's just borrowed

Edited by EDELWEISS (09/08/20 10:46 AM)

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tinker
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Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
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Re: More Howdah fun...... [Re: EDELWEISS]
#344173 - 09/08/20 10:59 AM

Depending on the animal, you might have a tough time with that 38 Special.

Here's one for you on 38 caliber handguns and skulls -

Everyone knows that black bear are small, light, and easy to kill, right?
Head shot should be easy, right?

38 Special should be enough, so 357 Maximum should be even better, right?

Siskiyou county, fifteen or so years ago, bear season.
Some lucky dude gets his tag, finds a top quality guide, has excellent gear, strikes it good on hunting day.
Really nice big boar, 357 Maximum loaded for bear.

Dude center punches the bear right between the eyes.
Bear goes down.
Dude jumps in circles in celebration.
Bear gets back up and clobbers dude, knocks him to the ground.
Guide saves the day and kills the bear.

Hunter ended up being ok after all.
As they examined the bear, that 38 caliber bullet was found pegged to the bear's skull, right where it hit. The bear's skull was creased and split, part of the bullet nose had extruded into the split in the skull.
Might have eventually killed the bear, but not quite right then.

I'm responding to your language of *Stopping*
I'm doing this in a kind and generous spirit in order to shine some light from the field experiences of some very determined hunters and shooters.

Telling yourself that you're doing "Stopping" business - you might end up convincing yourself of that, where maybe you shouldn't be.

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--

"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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tinker
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Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada

Re: More Howdah fun...... [Re: tinker]
#344174 - 09/08/20 11:50 AM

About fun and howdah pistols.

I'm as big a lunatic fan of the howdah pistol as anyone.
I have completely disassembled a period original 577 Howdah and drawn and dimensioned diagrams of every part and assembly. Some day I'll make a reproduction.

Also I'm as big a sucker for a hotrod handgun project as anyone. I really like cool handguns and I really like offbeat wildcat cartridge projects.
I think you should make up as many cool handguns and handgun cartridges as you can afford.

On the 500 and recoil or shootability - they might not be as bad as you think.
All the big bore cartridges can be loaded down.
When they can fit in a Ruger, they can be really handy.

This is a custom Alaskan in 500
I've shot it with full house loads, one handed, and I'm not a big tough guy.
With lighter loads it's a peach, and it packs really nicely - and it's accurate.

Don't hesitate on making your project ideas come to life.
You won't miss the money once it's been spent on the project, and you'll have the gun of your dreams, however it's loaded or whatever you name it.

Here's a company who will make brass for you, with your own cartridge name and caliber on the headstamp.

https://www.rccbrass.com/

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--

"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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EDELWEISS
.375 member

Reged: 22/11/05
Posts: 608
Loc: Gettysburg

Re: More Howdah fun...... [Re: tinker]
#344177 - 09/08/20 12:44 PM

You REALLY dont get this do you? I dont care what YOU think about the performance of a cartridge that hasnt even been created yet. Ive tried to explain the point of this thread over and over and yet Ill try one more time this time saying it slowly and with small words: I thought it might be fun to name a cartridge. I can say it in a couple other languages if you have trouble with English.

Im not quite sure why its come to this point. I do value your knowledge. Perhaps you failed to read what I wrote. Or perhaps you felt like you had to share your thoughts. Maybe you failed to read the whole post; but as I said you are MISSING THE POINT.

Im willing to believe you meant well but your responses have been akin to saying that youre wearing a White shirt, when asked if its raining. You are of course free to read half of what Ive written here and suggest that Im picking the wrong cartridge again.

Ive tried to be polite but youve left me to believe Ive been asking a tree for aluminum because houses are made from both. So thank you for your responses, if I ever want to know what colour shirt your wearing, Ill check to see if my umbrella is wet

--------------------
If it's not custom, it's just borrowed

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tinker
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Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada

Re: More Howdah fun...... [Re: EDELWEISS]
#344183 - 09/08/20 03:45 PM

Quote:

OK Im truly fixated and maybe just a bit warped when it comes to Howdah pistols. Im in the process of "building" my own version.

So now I need your help naming the cartridge. Im still up in the air as to what to use as a parent cartridge and the final bore size. Im toying with 450, 458, 500 and.... so think the bore size plus the name (as in 458 Lott)

Here are some of the cartridge names Ive come up with; but Im open to suggestions.

500 (Short) Nitro or 500 Nitro Short
500 Express
500 Panthera
500 Kurz
500 Sturm
500 Raj (going for the India feel)
500 Jagr
500 Shikaaree (Hindu for Hunter)
500 Sikari (Nepali for Hunter)
500 Sharpe (I guess I read too many Richard Sharpe novels)
500 Edel
500 Behold
500 Rogue
500 Manchester
500 Inferno
500 Fantom

Im torn between wanting a name that would be appropriate for a 19th Century cartridge and a Modern name

Quote:

All of your suggestions make good sense for the role you suggest EXCEPT Im not looking for the most ass. Im looking for something I can shoot, something thats bigger than a "conventional" carry handgun cartridge. I have magnums and a 454 Casull. Im sure 500JRH is a great round, Im just looking for something different. Then theres the current issue of getting ammo, specifically specialty cartridges. I have a source for 500SW brass and a saw...

Im NOT thinking of this as a hunting cartridge, rather a point blank stopping cartridge where even a 44mag would do. At THAT range, Im pretty sure the 500 Special would penetrate deep "enough" at bad breath range. If that doesnt work Ive considered the bottlenecks like a shortened 458 SOCOM.

Im hard pressed to know when Id ever be using it on anything bigger than Wild Boar or maybeeeee Black Bear climbing up my tree stand (another reason why it has to somewhat easier to control with one hand). Again NOT as a hunting cartridge; but as a stopping round meant for head shots at less than 10 feet. A number of years ago I had failed to stop a Boar with a 44mag BUT when he charged, I had an instant stop with a point blank hit (under 6 feet).

More to the point its a experiment meant to be fun. Thats why Im asking for help naming a baby

Quote:

You REALLY dont get this do you? I dont care what YOU think about the performance of a cartridge that hasnt even been created yet. Ive tried to explain the point of this thread over and over and yet Ill try one more time this time saying it slowly and with small words: I thought it might be fun to name a cartridge. I can say it in a couple other languages if you have trouble with English.

Im not quite sure why its come to this point. I do value your knowledge. Perhaps you failed to read what I wrote. Or perhaps you felt like you had to share your thoughts. Maybe you failed to read the whole post; but as I said you are MISSING THE POINT.

Im willing to believe you meant well but your responses have been akin to saying that youre wearing a White shirt, when asked if its raining. You are of course free to read half of what Ive written here and suggest that Im picking the wrong cartridge again.

Ive tried to be polite but youve left me to believe Ive been asking a tree for aluminum because houses are made from both. So thank you for your responses, if I ever want to know what colour shirt your wearing, Ill check to see if my umbrella is wet

You mad breh?

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--

"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26994
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...

Re: More Howdah fun...... [Re: tinker]
#344196 - 10/08/20 02:28 AM

I understand you are looking for a name for a ctg. that has no case or ballistics.
.500 GK (Giant Killer)! would that work?
I'm sure tinker was simply concerned about the ballistics end of your description of your "new" round & offering suggestions of rounds that would work.

There were two aspects of your thread, second listed in your 2nd post.

You noted:"Im NOT thinking of this as a hunting cartridge, rather a point blank stopping cartridge where even a 44mag would do."

tinker was merely putting forth his thoughts on this.

Your last post is out of line, in my opinion.

Of course, to be a Howdah, it has to be a side by side, or side by side over/under with 4 bls.
Likely a rimed case would be easiest.

Who's going to build it? Perhaps getting the gun together first, then naming the round you've chambered (if it is not a copy of another round), would be the way to go.

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EDELWEISS
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Reged: 22/11/05
Posts: 608
Loc: Gettysburg

Re: More Howdah fun...... [Re: DarylS]
#344205 - 10/08/20 04:07 AM

I dont see it as being out of line. I was pretty clear that this was suppose to be a fun thread about naming a cartridge and all I got over and over was answers to unasked questions, even when I said that wasnt the point....even when I said the cartridge hadnt even been designed yet. If I had asked for the information he provided, it would have been welcomed and strongly considered but I got repeated responses telling me to be careful of frostbite when I said I was planning a vacation to Florida in August. I seriously wondered if it was a medication thing. In the past when his info was on point it was valuable, last night his posts provided nothing useful to the question, hence the "white shirt in the rain" comment.

Let me be clear, I believe he has good knowledge to share. His previous suggestion about using 9.3 brass in a 410, makes a lot of sense. I had no animosity toward him and I will still consider any info he gives, as long as its on point.

Regarding a Howdah requiring 2 or four barrels, I would tend to agree (with some reservation as we've already discussed "other" pistols being used for the same purpose). Putting that aside for a second, Im using an Encore as a starting point. Its cheap, easy to change barrels and custom barrels can be had without any drama.

Perhaps building it first might be a way to go but it wont change the quest for a name. At least you suggested 500 GK; although I sense that was "loaded" with sarcasm....

I really thought this would be fun

--------------------
If it's not custom, it's just borrowed

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tinker
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Re: More Howdah fun...... [Re: EDELWEISS]
#344206 - 10/08/20 04:41 AM

You're talking about making a new cartridge, including giving it a name.
You're using language, including "Stopping" to describe where you want to go with the cartridge.

You're doing this in a forum.
Discussions happen here.

Your feelings got hurt.

Anything else?

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--

"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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93x64mm
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Re: More Howdah fun...... [Re: tinker]
#344213 - 10/08/20 08:26 AM

Well I nominate 500 Raj (or if you decide later on a different calibre(s) then it would be 577 / 600 Raj etc
If it's a Howdah then the old tiger leaping onto the back of an elephant springs straight to mind & only a Raj was wealthy enough to afford such a weapon to defend the townspeople to do so!
Will be interesting to see where this project goes, all the best on your endeavours.

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EDELWEISS
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Reged: 22/11/05
Posts: 608
Loc: Gettysburg

Re: More Howdah fun...... [Re: 93x64mm]
#344215 - 10/08/20 09:29 AM

Quote:

Well I nominate 500 Raj (or if you decide later on a different calibre(s) then it would be 577 / 600 Raj etc
If it's a Howdah then the old tiger leaping onto the back of an elephant springs straight to mind & only a Raj was wealthy enough to afford such a weapon to defend the townspeople to do so!
Will be interesting to see where this project goes, all the best on your endeavours.

THANK YOU!

I had been leaning towards that one too. It "says" India and a big handgun in India "says" tiger hunting to me.

--------------------
If it's not custom, it's just borrowed

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EDELWEISS
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Reged: 22/11/05
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Re: More Howdah fun...... [Re: tinker]
#344216 - 10/08/20 09:39 AM

Quote:

You're talking about making a new cartridge, including giving it a name.
You're using language, including "Stopping" to describe where you want to go with the cartridge.

You're doing this in a forum.
Discussions happen here.

Your feelings got hurt.

Anything else?

Tinker, I dont mind discussion, hence why I posted here.
I just had hoped the discussion would have fit the question. As Ive said, I bear you no ill will. No my feelings were not hurt; but I was frustrated. Again I truly do value you the knowledge you shared; but as I said you (perhaps we) were missing the point. Yes I used the phrase "Stopping Gun" and perhaps I should have explained it better. I used that phrase to describe the size of the cartridge over a smaller parlor gun. Assuming I pick an unworthy cartridge, I certainly wont have you to blame. I particularly want to thank you for the information on the custom cartridge company

Again I thank you for your suggestions and only now wish youd offer a name choice

--------------------
If it's not custom, it's just borrowed

Edited by EDELWEISS (10/08/20 09:47 AM)

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tinker
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Re: More Howdah fun...... [Re: EDELWEISS]
#344218 - 10/08/20 10:20 AM

Build your gun

Make it the best reflection of your interest and you'll have the best gun for you.

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--

"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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