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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Mannlicher Discussion forum & Archive
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Rolland
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Re: 6.5x53R from Buffalo Arms (USA) [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #341155 - 17/05/20 01:01 PM

I can down load the article Matt was refering to but not sure if it is copyright material. I was printed in Handloader magazine in 1993. If it is ok with the moderators I will print it.

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3DogMike
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Reged: 29/01/15
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Re: 6.5x53R from Buffalo Arms (USA) [Re: Rolland]
      #341174 - 18/05/20 01:29 AM

Matt,
Interesting information on the 1910 & 1915 dimensions. I wonder if this was done primarily for battle rifles where a loose fit might compensate for debris on the ammo or in the action? Would be worth it to see readable period engineering drawings of this.

Just to add one more variable: the “.256 Fraser Flanged” (simply the 6.5x53R case loaded with the Fraser bullet) was spec’d at a .069” min/.070” max rim thickness.
- Mike

--------------------
"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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Rolland
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Re: 6.5x53R from Buffalo Arms (USA) [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #341183 - 18/05/20 06:16 AM

I am going to post this if there are any problems then it can be removed

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3DogMike
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Re: 6.5x53R from Buffalo Arms (USA) [Re: Rolland]
      #341194 - 18/05/20 12:09 PM

Rolland,
Thanks so much for posting that.
I am in wonder that the article has a line drawing of the 6,5x53R with the rim thickness noted as .049”, yet the actual article notes various period documentation for Dutch & Romanian ammo was standard .060” to .075” rim thickness.

It begs the question as to what part of the rim might merit noting measuring a nominal .049”? Could it be that the “modern” line drawing measurement was a “2 stage” measurement where the stated actual rim diameter of .049” is the flat parallel (and only .049”) then radiused from there back to the case head so that the real headspace part of the rim is .060”-.075”

Lost to history?

All I am “fairly” certain of is that a .049” thick rim is excessively thin for proper headspace in actual vintage rifles.....
- Mike

--------------------
"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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Rolland
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Reged: 31/12/06
Posts: 281
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Re: 6.5x53R from Buffalo Arms (USA) [Re: 3DogMike]
      #341195 - 18/05/20 12:34 PM

I am beginning to think that is a generic drawing of the cartridge as I have found that in a number of reloading manuals and some printed by the NRA in their publications. I wonder if anyone other than the author has taken the time to research and measure the cartridges or just accepted this drawing as fact.
I did not know much about the gun or cartridge until I got an action and decided to build a rifle, Matt helped me quite a bit with the measurements and got a reamer made that is well with in tolerances of the original cartridge. That is the reamer I cut my chamber with and it works with the re-shaped .303 brass as well as chambering the original Kynoch ammo.
A friend sent me the article after I was finished with the 1918 Hemburg

Edited by Rolland (18/05/20 12:35 PM)

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: 6.5x53R from Buffalo Arms (USA) [Re: Rolland]
      #341199 - 18/05/20 09:23 PM

Quote:

I can down load the article Matt was refering to but not sure if it is copyright material. I was printed in Handloader magazine in 1993. If it is ok with the moderators I will print it.



Twenty seven year old magazine article? Really doubt anyone would object. In my opinion doing a service bringing dead articles back into life. Thanks for posting.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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93x64mm
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Re: 6.5x53R from Buffalo Arms (USA) [Re: NitroX]
      #341202 - 18/05/20 10:07 PM

Great article Rolland - & yes a great source of info!

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Waidmannsheil
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Re: 6.5x53R from Buffalo Arms (USA) [Re: 3DogMike]
      #341338 - 24/05/20 03:38 PM

Mike, very interesting about the Fraser round, where did you get that information from.

One thing I did do was stick some of the Kynoch rounds in the clip and using an Optivisor looked into the mag and moved the cartridge back and forth to see what sort of clearance there was in the groove. There is a small amount of clearance with 0.063" but with 0.075" there would almost be none which makes me wonder if there ever really was any 0.075" cases. I tried both Dutch and Rumanian clips and the clearance was the same.


Matt.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.

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3DogMike
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Re: 6.5x53R from Buffalo Arms (USA) [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #341366 - 25/05/20 03:58 AM

Hi Matt,
I pulled that information on the Fraser version of the 6.5 (.256 Fraser Flanged) from the book “British Sporting Rifle Cartridges” by Bill Fleming.
DWM was very specific with different case numbers for the Dutch and Romanian versions of the 6.5x53R.

Maybe some Romanian en-block clips allowed for the bigger rim thickness compared to the Dutch ones? Out of the clips that I have, most are the M95 type Dutch clips (larger rectangular window). I have just one clip that is said to be the M92/93 Romanian made (small oval lozenge shaped window) and it surely does seem that there is more fore/aft “play” in the rim recess of that clip with .060” thick rim ammo. Who knows?

There is at least one Fraser Steyr Mannlicher in 6.5x53R: http://www.sitemason.com/page/bculAk
- Mike

--------------------
"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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Rolland
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Re: 6.5x53R from Buffalo Arms (USA) [Re: 3DogMike]
      #341368 - 25/05/20 09:53 AM

When measuring the rim do you think its possible that the bevel on the edge of the case was measured rather than the full thickness and that is where the confusion started??? I measured my reformed cases on the edge and they will measure narrower than the the original full rim. I also have a few Kynock cartridges that measure around that .050 + - on the edge of the rim.
The full .303 rim will not feed worth a crap out of the clip unless they are beveled.

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3DogMike
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Re: 6.5x53R from Buffalo Arms (USA) [Re: Rolland]
      #341397 - 26/05/20 05:02 AM

Rolland, betting you are correct.
Note on this expanded view of the original vintage engineering drawing I got from Bruce Bertram of the 6.5x53R that I posted on May 9th.

I would guess that for the modern drawings found here and there that someone took the measurement of the "flat"
on the outside diameter of the rim as "rim thickness" and disregarded the radius to the actual case head.
- Mike



--------------------
"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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dearmer
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Re: 6.5x53R from Buffalo Arms (USA) [Re: 3DogMike]
      #341451 - 29/05/20 12:44 AM

You guys peaked my interest so I just went and measured some military rounds I have. None were date marked but half were FN and the other half were AI or A1. Both measured .060-063. Neither had any additional taper or chamfer at the edge. Certainly nothing approaching .049. It did appear that the edges were broken or rounded ever so slightly but nothing more.
I use reformed Greek military 303 brass for my cases and they measure out at about .060 and feed a bit snug in Dutch clips. I don't think .070 would feed in any of the clips I have.
The .060 rims fit just fine in my 1892/3 Gibbs. Maybe .070 would fit but I never thought about it as I headspace off the shoulder.

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3DogMike
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Reged: 29/01/15
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Re: 6.5x53R from Buffalo Arms (USA) [Re: dearmer]
      #341460 - 29/05/20 01:26 PM

Quote:

You guys peaked my interest so I just went and measured some military rounds I have. None were date marked but half were FN and the other half were AI or A1. Both measured .060-063. Neither had any additional taper or chamfer at the edge. Certainly nothing approaching .049. It did appear that the edges were broken or rounded ever so slightly but nothing more.
I use reformed Greek military 303 brass for my cases and they measure out at about .060 and feed a bit snug in Dutch clips. I don't think .070 would feed in any of the clips I have.
The .060 rims fit just fine in my 1892/3 Gibbs. Maybe .070 would fit but I never thought about it as I headspace off the shoulder.


Dearmer,
Thanks for the input. Every bit helps.

As a side note:
I attempted to do a polite, but pointed, mention of their (historically documented as larger) questionable .049” rim 6.5x53R “product review” on the Buffalo Arms Product page.
They (moderator) did not accept the review...no dice...says a lot I’d guess.
(Were I Buffalo Arms I would do some research and maybe just eat the cost of junking their run of questionable “thin rim“ brass.....as they say, “pride goeth before the fall”?
My 2¢ worth.
- Mike

--------------------
"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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lancaster
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Re: 6.5x53R from Buffalo Arms (USA) [Re: 3DogMike]
      #341486 - 30/05/20 05:59 AM

very true

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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Tom_H
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Reged: 13/04/05
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Loc: Southeast, NY
Re: 6.5x53R from Buffalo Arms (USA) [Re: lancaster]
      #341630 - 03/06/20 03:14 AM

My numbers match everyone else regarding rim thickness for both Kynoch and A1 at about .063
I make my brass from 30-40 but I do have to turn the rims down for a correct fit.

Tom

--------------------
Carbonation without fermentation is tyranny

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