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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Building Double Rifles & Gunsmithing
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Longknife
.333 member


Reged: 17/04/08
Posts: 263
Loc: Illinois
Bore rifle?
      #339468 - 28/03/20 02:41 AM

OK. I have and read a lot of info ( I have THE book) about building SXS rifles out of shotgun actions but they are always building high pressure cartridge rifles. What would be the criteria for building a low pressure bore rifle? I am thinking a 20 bore BLACK POWDER round maybe 70 to 100? grains of FF pushing a one ounce projectile. Would a quality 12 bore action, double underlug lockup with a dolls head, and steel (not Damascus) barrels suffice? I know breech thrust is a concern here also...Your thoughts please, Thanks, Ed

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Longknife

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tinker
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Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: Bore rifle? [Re: Longknife]
      #339469 - 28/03/20 02:57 AM

Look at 20 gauge slug ammunition.
Look at the ballistics of the hottest factory load you can find.
For instance the Brenneke 1oz 3" runs at about 1500fps.
That's likely about (or maybe even over) what you are talking about for pressure and thrust.
A relatively modern 20 gauge donor gun might just be the thing for you. Maybe not.

Why would the barrel material of the donor gun make a difference for you?
You'd be replacing whatever is on the gun to start anyway.

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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Longknife
.333 member


Reged: 17/04/08
Posts: 263
Loc: Illinois
Re: Bore rifle? [Re: tinker]
      #339470 - 28/03/20 04:53 AM

As I understand in Browns book there are three ways to convert a SXS shotgun into a rifle. (1)Use the existing barrels assy, cut off the barrels, bore and sleeve the monoblock, or (2) cut off barrels and thread and screw barrels to monoblock or (3)make up a completely new monoblock and barrels assy,,,,, I was thinking of the # 1 or 2 option as it might be a bit stronger with steel barrels, maybe not...Ed

I would also prefer to use vintage hammer quality hammer gun,,,,

Edited by Longknife (29/03/20 08:59 AM)

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26998
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Bore rifle? [Re: tinker]
      #339471 - 28/03/20 05:01 AM

I think a 12 bore action would be too large for a 20 bore rifle.
I'm concerned though, that a damascus barreled gun might not have the design or material strength in the action to support
the 20 bore rifle on smokeless, but BP loads suggested should be OK.
A dolls head really doesn't do much to keep the barrels on face as it does nothing to resist hinging forces, only pulling forces.
The 1901 12 bore SxS I used for my 12 bore ball gun, was used with 191gr. 1F & 2F with the .682" ball in a cupped wad. The gun
had .724" bores, tight for 12. I now have a .724" ball mould but the gun is long gone. lol A local guy needed it more than I did.
A note about heavy loads, I did have to repair the stock after the 2nd or third shot with that load.
any modern 20 bore action will handle about any BP load you could get into a case, I'd expect.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Longknife
.333 member


Reged: 17/04/08
Posts: 263
Loc: Illinois
Re: Bore rifle? [Re: DarylS]
      #339473 - 28/03/20 05:10 AM

Daryl, As I stated in the first post I am planning on shooting ONLY BLACK POWDER, and not more than 100 grains, I do not load smokeless, never have, never will!!!! I would like to use a hammer gun of good quality,,,Ed

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Longknife

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Tom_H
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Reged: 13/04/05
Posts: 336
Loc: Southeast, NY
Re: Bore rifle? [Re: Longknife]
      #340408 - 26/04/20 01:29 AM

Greetings Longknife.

Stick with the smaller bore gun. Go with a gun that has better lockup as well.

When I built one, I went with a 16ga gun and used 20ga tubes and monoblocked. That project worked out fairly well but as stated earlier, it is really easy to go overweight when using a larger frame.
The math I used was that the wall thickness needed to be at least .090 so in the monoblock area it was easier to keep my barrel blank to that number when it was sleeved into the 16ga block. Go with solder. Shotguns are easy to work with.
I am presuming you are going with rifled blanks.

Whatever blank you go with has to have a groove diameter same or smaller than the inside diameter of the shotshell hull. In my case, Brenekee hulls were.625 on the inside (IIRC) so that was the groove diameter, and I went with .005 rifling (IIRC) with a slow twist. Shot fantastically.
The negative is that it had to be a custom barrel.
Factory smoothbores are up around .620

If you can use brass cases (which will also give you more capacity), they are much thinner and you may be able to get away with a repurposed factory barrel and simply send it out to be rifled.

100 gr is a good number.

Cheers,

Tom

--------------------
Carbonation without fermentation is tyranny

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26998
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Bore rifle? [Re: Tom_H]
      #340414 - 26/04/20 03:41 AM

Good stuff, Tom.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Tom_H
.333 member


Reged: 13/04/05
Posts: 336
Loc: Southeast, NY
Re: Bore rifle? [Re: DarylS]
      #340494 - 28/04/20 11:15 AM

Hey Daryl. I have a lot of people to thank on this site for the wealth of info present.
I was just glad that I managed to make a limited amount of mistakes and i enjoy tinkering.
Right now I am still deliberating breaking down my 20ga cape so that I can turn another few ounces off of the barrel and making it a manageable weight. Nothing is more useless than a good shooting gun that is too heavy to take out hunting.
Latest project is an ershaw 20ga barrel on a Savage 219.
The 219 was definitely a "borrowed" German Tell rifle once you look at the design. Should turn out to be a great stalking gun weighing in at about 7lbs scoped.
Stuck in a shotgun/ml only county in NY, might as well go out in style.

Tom

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Carbonation without fermentation is tyranny

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Re: Bore rifle? [Re: Tom_H]
      #340519 - 29/04/20 04:15 AM

Cool! 219 Single shot, no wonder so light weight. A 20 bore SS rifle. Round balls or conical balls & what load?

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Tom_H
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Reged: 13/04/05
Posts: 336
Loc: Southeast, NY
Re: Bore rifle? [Re: DarylS]
      #340572 - 30/04/20 06:56 AM

Please don't judge.
I I wanted to take advantage of one of the newer sabots that I stocked up on. Remington with the Barnes expander.
I tend to stay away from sabots because they have so many problems and once you find one that works it goes out of production.
That being said, I have done some testing with those specific loads and managed groups as small as 1.5 at 100 with them. They are supposed to be fairly lethal as well but I have yet to personally take game with it.
I purchased a few fast twist ER Shaw barrels for a couple of jobs. This gun is getting the second one.
It is nice to have a flat shooting gun out to 150 yds or so.

I may go back to building a round ball gun but I have to see how this one works out first.

Cheers.
Tom

--------------------
Carbonation without fermentation is tyranny

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Longknife
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Reged: 17/04/08
Posts: 263
Loc: Illinois
Re: Bore rifle? [Re: Tom_H]
      #340574 - 30/04/20 09:43 AM

Tom , thanks for the reply. I too. am stuck in a Shotgun and ML only state. I have taken every deer I have ever harvested with a .54 rifle or a 20 bore smoothbore ML, both are flintlocks. I am currently tuning an antique SXS ball and shot gun to be my back up weapon in case or adverse weather! See the Emil Echoldt thread. My desire for a real breech loading bore rifle persists and given the cost of these now days I am exploring the possibility of building my own.
Although a 16 bore frame would be smaller and therefore make a lighter gun a decent one is scarce as hens teeth. I am not stuck on building a 20 bore either, a 16 bore would be nice too and a 12 bore would do me fine. As the bores get bigger the pressures' drop, right? ,I am talking low pressure BLACK POWDER loads. These BP loads , according to the charts I can find, top out a 5,000 PSI. using 3 1/2 drams of black powder and one ounce loads. I could fit new rifled barrels to 12 bore monoblock and use existing chambers too!!?,,, I have a Remington 1889 that is in pretty decent condition but the barrels are bulged in a couple of spots, maybe a good candidate!?,,,,Thanks, Ed

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Longknife

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Longknife
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Reged: 17/04/08
Posts: 263
Loc: Illinois
Re: Bore rifle? [Re: Longknife]
      #340575 - 30/04/20 09:56 AM

Here are a couple of charts I have for pressure data;
https://content.osgnetworks.tv/shootingtimes/content/photos/Blackpowder-for-Shotshells-5.jpg
https://content.osgnetworks.tv/shootingtimes/content/photos/Blackpowder-for-Shotshells-4.jpg

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Longknife

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bouldersmith
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Reged: 23/03/06
Posts: 627
Loc: Boulder Colorado
Re: Bore rifle? [Re: Longknife]
      #340586 - 01/05/20 12:03 AM

I would look for a jones under lever with bad barrels, they can often be had for very low dollar. Your idea of building on a larger gauge frame than the rifle gauge you intend to build in is a very good one. Look in the Greener for finished rifle weights for the gun you plan to build. You want it to finish quite a bit heavier than a shotgun in the same gauge but not so heavy it does not balance well.

I have way too many projects on hand currently but I have wanted to build a bore rifle for some time now. I picked up a gun out of auction in the UK that started life as a .58 caliber muzzleloading stalking rifle and when I bought it had been converted to a jones underlever shotgun and had a bad barrel. I will eventually re-barrel that one for myself, likely in a short version of a .577 or .500 3".

Steve

--------------------
New website http://www.bertramandco.com

Edited by bouldersmith (01/05/20 12:16 AM)

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transvaal
.300 member


Reged: 19/01/13
Posts: 131
Loc: South Carolina
Re: Bore rifle? [Re: bouldersmith]
      #340595 - 01/05/20 07:10 AM

Do not be led astray a 12 bore action is not too large for a 20 bore double rifle basis. Just taper the barrels to get to the weight and balance as you want.

Here is a link on this site to a 20 double rifle I built from a 12 gauge modern double shotgun that you can buy new for about $500.00 from Academy Sports. It is CNC machine made of 4140 alloy steel based upon the FN single trigger design and is a wonderfully quality made shotgun that has real Turkish walnut that is worth more than what you pay for the shotgun.


http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat....true#Post225851

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Tom_H
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Reged: 13/04/05
Posts: 336
Loc: Southeast, NY
Re: Bore rifle? [Re: transvaal]
      #340602 - 01/05/20 01:13 PM

I remember that post. Beautiful work Transvaal.
No doubt that a proper gun can be built on a larger frame. The question is whether the owner wants to balance more like a rifle or a shotgun or how much weight you want depending on the load you are using. Nobody likes to get beaten up.

Longknife, since you live in Illinois, take a look at Simpson Ltd. They import a lot of firearms and have some great platforms.
If you want hammers, they typically have Husqvarna 51s and some Belgian guns for reasonable numbers. Those models are relatively modern guns with Greener crossbolts which is a plus.
You didn't mention the level of machine equipment you have access to.
Less machining to sleeve a 20ga barrel into a 12ga monoblock though.

Transvaal, did you ever build that small bore double rifle on the AYA?
Steve, a short case double 58 sounds like a great rig.

Tom

--------------------
Carbonation without fermentation is tyranny

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transvaal
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Reged: 19/01/13
Posts: 131
Loc: South Carolina
Re: Bore rifle? [Re: Tom_H]
      #340604 - 01/05/20 01:46 PM

Tom;

No, I did not build anything on the AyA action and it is still in my shop somewhere. There were a whole number of issues with the original AyA factory machining of the action that kept me from believing it would be a good action.

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bouldersmith
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Reged: 23/03/06
Posts: 627
Loc: Boulder Colorado
Re: Bore rifle? [Re: transvaal]
      #341569 - 01/06/20 09:43 AM



this one is a single....I'll get to it someday.

--------------------
New website http://www.bertramandco.com

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