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Wayne59
.400 member

Reged: 20/06/15
Posts: 1219
Loc: Lagrange Ga. USA

Re: The earliest black powder calibers in metal case ? [Re: DarylS]
#337990 - 16/02/20 01:10 PM

Daryl I beleave this gun was unfired when I got it. The bores were in mint condition. There was a chip in the wrist that has been repaired. It could have been done better but it is solid.

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lancaster
.470 member

Reged: 06/05/08
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Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...

Re: The earliest black powder calibers in metal case ? [Re: Wayne59]
#338016 - 17/02/20 01:44 AM

truth come out piece by piece, so you have a pinfire combination gun with 20/65 shotgun and 24 ga rifle barrel. whats is the length of the 24 ga case?

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Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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Wayne59
.400 member

Reged: 20/06/15
Posts: 1219
Loc: Lagrange Ga. USA

Re: The earliest black powder calibers in metal case ? [Re: lancaster]
#338031 - 17/02/20 09:44 AM

Never said this was a double rifle. You came to that conclusion on your own. The case length is 1.275".

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lancaster
.470 member

Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 9034
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Re: The earliest black powder calibers in metal case ? [Re: Wayne59]
#338092 - 18/02/20 07:53 AM

between 1860 and 1870 24 ga and 28 ga bullet cartridges were probably the most used hunting rifle cartridges in germany. the paper shells were allways cut down and it seem 30/33 mm was common like 40 mm long shells. they shoot then very low powder loads in muzzle loader and also in the early cartridge guns. a double rifle was an expensive thing like it is today so you see many combination guns having a 24 or 28 ga rifled barrel and a 20 ga shotgun barrel because in this combination you can give both barrels the same outside diameter.

the later 24 ga bullet measure .622 what is oversized but you gun had an own mould than

RWS 63mm and 40 mm long pinfire brass case, no 33mm

but DWM still offer a 33 mm long 24 ga center fire case

Kugelpatrone means rifle cartridge

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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AaronN322
.224 member

Reged: 01/09/14
Posts: 13
Loc: USA

Re: The earliest black powder calibers in metal case ? [Re: DarylS]
#338350 - 25/02/20 01:44 PM

Here's my Pauly pistol cartridge. His rifle ones were actually a paper case.

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Clock Guns, Pauly Guns, Pinfire Guns and Pinfire Cartridges

Edited by AaronN322 (25/02/20 02:03 PM)

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lancaster
.470 member

Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 9034
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...

Re: The earliest black powder calibers in metal case ? [Re: AaronN322]
#338424 - 27/02/20 06:23 AM

excellent!

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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Wayne59
.400 member

Reged: 20/06/15
Posts: 1219
Loc: Lagrange Ga. USA

Re: The earliest black powder calibers in metal case ? [Re: lancaster]
#338445 - 27/02/20 11:44 AM

I don't beleave I have ever seen a bottle neck paper cartridge. Do you have pic's of one.

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DarylS
.700 member

Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26998
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...

Re: The earliest black powder calibers in metal case ? [Re: Wayne59]
#338446 - 27/02/20 11:56 AM

Weren't .577/450's originally done with iron head and paper, prior to coiled brass or copper?
I cannot find a picture of one, though.

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Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Wayne59
.400 member

Reged: 20/06/15
Posts: 1219
Loc: Lagrange Ga. USA

Re: The earliest black powder calibers in metal case ? [Re: DarylS]
#338477 - 28/02/20 04:26 AM

I have seen the coiled brass ones for the 577/450 but never a paper case. The pic of the case I posted was fire formed in the chamber. I was very surprised to see a bottle neck case. I expected a tapered case.

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lancaster
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Re: The earliest black powder calibers in metal case ? [Re: Wayne59]
#338514 - 29/02/20 07:00 AM

Quote:

I don't beleave I have ever seen a bottle neck paper cartridge. Do you have pic's of one.

the only bootle neck paper cartridge I aware now is the Model 1866 Chassepot

you have a cylindrical paper case of 13 mm diameter and a conical bullet with 11,8 mm at the base, this two elements are connected by the paper patch. interesting technical solution but it dont stand the test.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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Wayne59
.400 member

Reged: 20/06/15
Posts: 1219
Loc: Lagrange Ga. USA

Re: The earliest black powder calibers in metal case ? [Re: lancaster]
#338523 - 29/02/20 10:48 AM

I own an 1866 Chassepot and I shoot it. I didn't consider it a bottle neck.

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lancaster
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Re: The earliest black powder calibers in metal case ? [Re: Wayne59]
#338529 - 29/02/20 05:06 PM

its the only paper cartridge where the barrel have a much smaller diameter than the chamber:

you can shoot the chassepot also with brass cases and then they have a bottle neck.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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Wayne59
.400 member

Reged: 20/06/15
Posts: 1219
Loc: Lagrange Ga. USA

Re: The earliest black powder calibers in metal case ? [Re: lancaster]
#338546 - 01/03/20 12:40 AM

The chamber cast you shown here in the photo shows a straight wall with a lead (or forcing cone) Whatever you prefer and the case is the length of the straight section of the chamber cast.The bullet isn't counted into the equation because it is not part of the case. The chamber for the aforementioned cape rifle is cut with a distinct bottle neck shape with a small lead in front of the case mouth.

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TIMBERMAN
.224 member

Reged: 10/10/19
Posts: 16
Loc: Bohuslän, Sweden

Re: The earliest black powder calibers in metal case ? [Re: Wayne59]
#339496 - 28/03/20 05:09 PM

Very, very nice rifle. And sooo beautiful damasked barrels. Really nice !
Wondering if it has been made back in the days damasked single barrels for rifle ammo, not shorguns. Or mayby the technique forging it didn't allowed thicker barrels damasked ? A little sidestep when I saw it.

So, the Paulys cartridge was as small as a 22 short ? Wondering a lot in which dimension it was nearby.

Was it more smaller cartridges like the 44 Henry when it came ? Looked at the .50 Remington Navy cartridge, but it was only for that rolling block pistol I suppose.
Were some of them like that one "converted" to primer cases a little later?

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26998
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...

Re: The earliest black powder calibers in metal case ? [Re: TIMBERMAN]
#339522 - 29/03/20 06:27 AM

Rimfire, to internally central-fire like in the copper .50/70, then to externally primed central fire.
I do not think the .44 Henry went to the internally primed, but directly from rim fire to externally primed central fire.
Not sure about the .50 Rem. rim fire pistol round.

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Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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