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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Mauser Discussion Forum

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BwanaBob
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Loc: Gold Coast, QLD, Australia

Cocking-piece aperture sights on heavy recoiling rifles?
#334940 - 28/11/19 03:51 PM

I am in the process of building a .500 Jeffery on an original Obendorf Mauser 98. As I am slightly short-sighted, and can no longer use open sights very well, I am looking to mount an aperture sight on this rifle. I already have a Lyman receiver sight that I might fit to this rifle, but I really like the Rigby style, cocking piece aperture sights.

My question, is whether such sights are too close to the eye when dealing with heavy recoiling rifles? I have read comments that they should NOT be used with heavy recoiling rifles and have read other comments that contradict that view.

What is the consensus here... do, or do not, use a Ribgy style cocking piece aperture sight on a heavy recoiling rifle?

--------------------
"White men with their ridiculous civilization lie far from me. No longer need I be a slave to money" (W.D.M Bell)

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tinker
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Re: Cocking-piece aperture sights on heavy recoiling rifles? [Re: BwanaBob]
#334941 - 28/11/19 04:02 PM

With proper stock fit for the heavy rifle you shouldn't have any issues with the cocking piece hitting you upon recoil.

Are you currently using a tang mounted or *any* aperture sight on a rifle?
What's your eye relief?
Disc size and aperture size might need to be adjusted for you with a somewhat extended eye relief.

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--

"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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BwanaBob
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Re: Cocking-piece aperture sights on heavy recoiling rifles? [Re: tinker]
#334943 - 28/11/19 05:46 PM

I have owned a number of aperture sighted rifles over the years. At the moment I have a Miroku-made, 1895 Winchester in .405 Winchester with a Providence Tool Company Type 21 aperture sight modified to take a Merit adjustable iris peep. I also have a BRNO ZKK602 in .375 H&H, a ZKK600 in 7x57 and a CZ550 in .416 Rigby all with the pop-up aperture sights.

I am a big fan of aperture sights and hence I will be including one on the .500 Jeffery.

I was just concerned, with the cocking piece style, because I have read contradictory information about their use on heavy recoiling rifles - for example Elmer Keith, in his book 'Keith's Rifles for Large Game' says, when referring to the cocking piece aperture sights: "This sight position is too close to the eye on all rifles of fairly heavy recoil unless the stock be abnormally long."

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"White men with their ridiculous civilization lie far from me. No longer need I be a slave to money" (W.D.M Bell)

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casper50
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Re: Cocking-piece aperture sights on heavy recoiling rifles? [Re: BwanaBob]
#334948 - 28/11/19 09:11 PM

I have one on my .404 Jeffery Mauser. No problems.

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ColoradoMatt1
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Re: Cocking-piece aperture sights on heavy recoiling rifles? [Re: casper50]
#335026 - 30/11/19 04:02 AM

You should have no issues. The early Rigby Cocking-piece aperture sights did not have a diopter knob, but simply had the post that was raised and lowered manually by loosening a lock screw. I would prefer this arrangement for any open sight bolt gun, as I would not need to raise and lower it all the time. This would be especially true for an Ele/Dg gun. I bought one of Gottfied Prechtl’s Rigby diopter sights. It was too big and heavy for my taste, and I decided that if I were to mount a Cocking-piece aperture sight, I would go with the early non-diopter version for the reasons I mentioned. I sent that Prechtl/Rigby diopter sight on down the road.

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3DogMike
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Re: Cocking-piece aperture sights on heavy recoiling rifles? [Re: BwanaBob]
#335069 - 02/12/19 02:18 PM

Quote:

?.......- for example Elmer Keith, in his book 'Keith's Rifles for Large Game' says, when referring to the cocking piece aperture sights: "This sight position is too close to the eye on all rifles of fairly heavy recoil unless the stock be abnormally long."

I do believe (having read a lot of Elmer Keith over the years) that he was “mostly” referring to the usual tang mounted peep sight on common lever actions......especially uphill shooting can get the tang mounted Lyman or Marble peep pretty close to ones eye.
There is a fair bit of distance eye relief wise comparing those tang sights and a Mauser action cocking piece sight.
I would think one would really have to be crawling the stock to get too close to a Rigby type cocking piece peep, and seems to me that on a heavy “stopper” type of rifle that the perp sight (as opposed to open V ) would be of very dubious advantage at 25-50 yards? Of course if vision limitations require a peep or optical sight, well then a cocking piece sight might be the answer.
- Mike

--------------------
"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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DarylS
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Re: Cocking-piece aperture sights on heavy recoiling rifles? [Re: 3DogMike]
#335077 - 02/12/19 06:04 PM

That makes sense, Mike and when you mentioned it, I could almost "see" the writing in the articles attributed to Keith.

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Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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BwanaBob
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Re: Cocking-piece aperture sights on heavy recoiling rifles? [Re: 3DogMike]
#335082 - 03/12/19 01:49 AM

Except that the quote, that I mentioned, is in direct reference to cocking-piece aperture sights mounted on bolt action rifles and he specifically mentions personal experience with Krag and Springfield rifles, the latter in .400 Whelen calibre.

--------------------
"White men with their ridiculous civilization lie far from me. No longer need I be a slave to money" (W.D.M Bell)

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3DogMike
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Re: Cocking-piece aperture sights on heavy recoiling rifles? [Re: BwanaBob]
#335083 - 03/12/19 02:47 AM

Quote:

Except that the quote, that I mentioned, is in direct reference to cocking-piece aperture sights mounted on bolt action rifles and he specifically mentions personal experience with Krag and Springfield rifles, the latter in .400 Whelen calibre.

Well, just trying to brainstorm the original question.
In order to get poked in the eye by a cocking piece peep sight it seems like one would have to be snugged up very close to the bolt/cocking piece. On a mil issue Krag or 1903 Springfield the stocks length of pull were pretty short.
Now Elmer Keith shot a lot of military rifle matches, so perhaps when shooting stages from prone?

As well, the current vogue when shooting game (or matches) with big rifles is to keep the rifle on ones shoulder while cycling the bolt. Surely there would be a problem with bolt to face clearance if one were so close to the cocking piece as to possibly get hurt?

All in all an interesting question.
.....I personally have not given this question any thought til now as I can still see the typical open V iron sights sufficiently for up to 50 yards on targets, and 100+ yards at game, past that a peep or scope is nice.
I usually give the most thought to my thumb giving me a bloody nose with the really heavy kickers if I don’t watch out.

- Mike

--------------------
"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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Juglansregia
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Re: Cocking-piece aperture sights on heavy recoiling rifles? [Re: 3DogMike]
#335092 - 03/12/19 01:25 PM

3DogMike makes a good point. My own personal experiences tell me that if a DG rifle cannot be kept at the shoulder, mounted, while cycling the bolt, you are much disadvantaged in time taken when quick follow-up shots are required. I've seen more than one hunter drop a rifle to reload then re-mount the rifle to shoot again, when the pressure is on. Good luck with that form during a charge.

A cocking-piece peep is fine on a rifle, so long as a fresh cartridge can be chambered easily with the rifle shouldered. Cheek-weld should be maintained while the action is cycled. Going to the trouble of making a pattern stock, that can be used as a try-stock on the rifle to thrash issues like this out before making the stock proper, can prove a nifty thing on a number of levels but few people go to the bother of taking that time.

The other aspect to them, is that on say an M98 action, the rear of the bolt can have a lot of slop both up/down and sideways, which varies from action to action. This not only affects trigger feel/function (variable sear positions), but with a peep affects repeatability of the rear sight. Sadly, this is almost never taken care of when mounting a cocking-piece peep, and accuracy can suffer. The peep to me is useless without proper sear mods ($$$$$$$$$ and time). Would you shoot a rifle with a vee rearsight flopping around in the dovetail? What is more, if the action is a standard one to be opened up at the rear, the bolt slop only ever increases. Re gun fit, this can be so significant as to force the comb height of the stock to be lower than it otherwise ought to have been. An action for fitting a bolt mounted peep to ought to be carefully chosen and modified.

Lock time seems somewhat slower, too, not such an issue on a big bore like a .500J. Ideally you need the long cocking piece on a 98.

Done right, they can be a great thing. Obviously, with a thin ghost-ring peep rather than a diopter they are a really fast sight.

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BwanaBob
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Loc: Gold Coast, QLD, Australia

Re: Cocking-piece aperture sights on heavy recoiling rifles? [Re: Juglansregia]
#335100 - 03/12/19 04:43 PM

Thinking about the comments about shooting off the shoulder, that is a very good point. I ALWAYS keep the rifle on my shoulder as I cycle the bolt for follow-up shots and I just tried it with my CZ550 .416 Rigby and my BRNO 7x57, and the cocking-piece of both rifles gets very close to my eye. I have never noticed how close it gets before but now that I am looking for it, I can see that it is VERY close. I think I am going to have to try one on a lighter calibre and see how cycling, on the shoulder, goes with the aperture coming so close to the eye.

--------------------
"White men with their ridiculous civilization lie far from me. No longer need I be a slave to money" (W.D.M Bell)

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Homer
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Re: Cocking-piece aperture sights on heavy recoiling rifles? [Re: BwanaBob]
#335101 - 03/12/19 06:10 PM

G'Day Fella's,

Bwana Bob, I approach this from a different angle (how strange that is, for me ......)!
If these sights are still avalable from Rigby and https://mclaughlincustomfirearms.com/rigby-peep-sights/original/, I can't see there being any issues.
If these sights were really causing damage to the person firing them, they would have died a natural death, years ago.
It is best to be cautious but .......

Hope that helps

D'oh!
Homer

--------------------
"Beware the Lolly Pop of Mediocrity,
Lick it Once and You Will Suck Forever"

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PatagonHunter
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Reged: 20/01/06
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Loc: Bariloche, Patagonia Argentina

Re: Cocking-piece aperture sights on heavy recoiling rifles? [Re: Homer]
#335112 - 04/12/19 01:38 AM

Hello,

To me the cocking-piece aperture sight is, sorry, an abortion! Period. It increases the weight, so the time, of the firing pin. Plus, as BwanaBob observes, cycling the bolt with the rifle in the shoulder, as it should be and should be practiced a lot more today, put that aperture sight too close to the face of the shooter. Is an old solution for a peep sight, more nostalgic than useful today.
A LOT more convenient, from my point of view, is a small peep sight, more properly called a ghost ring sight, "a la" BRNO ZKK, mounted on the back of the rear scope mount base. Like that great little one offered 30 years ago by Redfield. If the rifle is without scope, a rear base can be installed to put that little Redfield type peep sight. That can be fold down to use the normal open sights.
If a precision peep sight is needed or wanted, a Lyman 48 rear bridge type is a lot more convenient.

Best!

PH

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Rothhammer1
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Re: Cocking-piece aperture sights on heavy recoiling rifles? [Re: PatagonHunter]
#335147 - 04/12/19 09:52 PM

Behold the Lyman 35 (from the 1939 Stoeger catalog):

--------------------
Citizen of the Cherokee Nation

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PatagonHunter
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Loc: Bariloche, Patagonia Argentina

Re: Cocking-piece aperture sights on heavy recoiling rifles? [Re: Rothhammer1]
#335165 - 05/12/19 06:09 AM

Hello Rothhammer1,

Good sight! And don't need to touch nothing on the rifle.

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twobobbwana
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Loc: Queensland, Australia

Re: Cocking-piece aperture sights on heavy recoiling rifles? [Re: PatagonHunter]
#335179 - 06/12/19 11:50 AM

Bwanabob,

I've got a mate who has had a .500 Jeffrey on a pre64, with an original Rigby cocking piece peep sight, on it for years and I've never heard him say a bad word about it.

He later (?) put a low mounted scope on it in QD mounts.

No talk of him dispensing with the Peep site.

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Rothhammer1
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Re: Cocking-piece aperture sights on heavy recoiling rifles? [Re: PatagonHunter]
#335188 - 06/12/19 08:45 PM

Quote:

Hello Rothhammer1,

Good sight! And don't need to touch nothing on the rifle.

They're hard to find and expensive, much as the Lyman 36 for der Mannlicher Schoenauer.

Here's one for sale at a mere $725 USD: GunsInternational

Patent drawing and description: Lyman 35 Patent 1905

--------------------
Citizen of the Cherokee Nation

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vykkagur
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Re: Cocking-piece aperture sights on heavy recoiling rifles? [Re: Rothhammer1]
#336785 - 21/01/20 01:06 AM

One of the advantages of a cocking-piece peep sight is that, as soon as you pull the trigger, the sight springs away from your eye before the firing pin actually touches the primer. The distance you should consider is that from the eye to the sight in the fired position. As for free play affecting accuracy, the cocking-piece peep is not a precision competition sight; it's a short- or medium-range field sight, often on moving targets. It's more in the same class as the battle apertures used on P14's or Garands. Better quality construction can just give you a bonus in accuracy.

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MikeRowe
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Re: Cocking-piece aperture sights on heavy recoiling rifles? [Re: vykkagur]
#336786 - 21/01/20 01:15 AM

Under field conditions a small amount of play in a cocking piece sight is of little consequence.

I did the math one time for one of my own rifles, which had .008" of wiggle (feels quite a lot).
Turned out that with the sight radius of that particular rifle, the bullet impact would shift one inch at 100 yards.

Every time I shoot it, it's right on the money.....

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JDL
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Re: Cocking-piece aperture sights on heavy recoiling rifles? [Re: MikeRowe]
#336853 - 22/01/20 05:51 AM

Hey, I will take 5 of the $10.00 sights! :-D

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DarylS
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Re: Cocking-piece aperture sights on heavy recoiling rifles? [Re: JDL]
#336865 - 22/01/20 11:48 AM

Shooting prone there is more of a tendency to crawl forward on the comb, otherwise I cannot "see" getting hit by the sight.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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sbs470
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Re: Cocking-piece aperture sights on heavy recoiling rifles? [Re: DarylS]
#336920 - 23/01/20 06:40 PM

Same as casper50 I’ve one on my 404 also. It has improved my scores at the big game rifle club events

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