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Vette447
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Loc: Oklahoma, USA
.577 NE 3 inch - 650 gr / 90 gr Cordite Questions
      #333331 - 12/10/19 03:18 AM

I have been trying to do some research on a few top British maker .577 NE double rifles that were built around 1903 and the barrel flats are stamped:
.577 EX
90 Cordite - 650 Max

These are .577 NE 3 inch guns and I take they are regulated/proofed for the 90 gr Cordite / 650 gr Bullet load. How does this load compare to the full bore 750 gr loads? Is it anemic and not as useful as a dangerous game "stopper" rifle? I assume that shooting full bore loads would not be safe in these rifles, regardless of regulation?

Thanks!

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DarylS
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Re: .577 NE 3 inch - 650 gr / 90 gr Cordite Questions [Re: Vette447]
      #333332 - 12/10/19 03:35 AM

Sounds legitimate, if the guns are stamped 90gr. Cordite - 650 Max. That kinda says no to full powered loads.
It is likely a nitro-for-black-type of load, ie: 1,650fps with 650gr. bullet.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Vette447
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Reged: 15/02/09
Posts: 76
Loc: Oklahoma, USA
Re: .577 NE 3 inch - 650 gr / 90 gr Cordite Questions [Re: DarylS]
      #333334 - 12/10/19 03:51 AM

It also has a crown stamp with "BV" and a crown stamp with "NP" on the barrel flat water table. Should have mentioned those too.

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3DogMike
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Re: .577 NE 3 inch - 650 gr / 90 gr Cordite Questions [Re: DarylS]
      #333335 - 12/10/19 04:23 AM

Quote:

Sounds legitimate, if the guns are stamped 90gr. Cordite - 650 Max. That kinda says no to full powered loads.
It is likely a nitro-for-black-type of load, ie: 1,650fps with 650gr. bullet.


Not so.
The 90-650 was the original “Full Nitro” load at the turn the century. It is noted clearly in the later 1910 H&H catalog.
.577 90 Cordite - 650 Grain bullet was offered in 3” and 2 3/4” rifles and gave a claimed 1950’/sec out if 28” barrels.
The .577EX stamp did not denote solely Black powder proof; for Express Rifles “if” accompanied by the Cordite charge and bullet weight it was “nitro proof” until the NITRO “NP” stamp was introduced in 1904.

The .577 NfB loadings were usually 75 grains of Cordite.

Graeme Wright, Wal Winfer and Hoyem all note the 90-650 loads.

As to whether the 100-750 loading is “safe” in a 90-650 proofed rifle is up for debate. Supposedly the proof was done at 100-750 pressures whether or not it was stamped at 90-650. This tidbit is mentioned in the notes on page 203 of the 3rd edition of Graeme Wright’s book “Shooting the British Double Rifle”

- Mike

--------------------
"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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Vette447
.275 member


Reged: 15/02/09
Posts: 76
Loc: Oklahoma, USA
Re: .577 NE 3 inch - 650 gr / 90 gr Cordite Questions [Re: 3DogMike]
      #333339 - 12/10/19 06:03 AM

Thanks. I agree that these are not black powder guns based on the “NP” proof and Cordite denotation.

Very curious to know if these guns were generally proofed for the 750gr/100gr loads even if marked 650/90. I think I read that on an Explora post on the Westley Richards blog site.

Also, wondering if the 650/90 nitro load is anemic in real world use as a DGR. Does the lighter load and large frontal area cancel out much of the stopping and penetration power of a round like the 577 NE?

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Huvius
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Re: .577 NE 3 inch - 650 gr / 90 gr Cordite Questions [Re: Vette447]
      #333340 - 12/10/19 06:19 AM

Anemic isn’t a term I would ever use when describing any 577! Well, maybe the Snider but that’s not a DG cartridge.
The 90/650 load is still quite powerful and surely capable of handling any dangerous game with the proper bullet.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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DarylS
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Re: .577 NE 3 inch - 650 gr / 90 gr Cordite Questions [Re: Huvius]
      #333341 - 12/10/19 06:35 AM

Interesting, thanks for the info.
Considering many hunters felt the 160gr./650gr. BP loading for the .577 as being just fine for pachyderms, rhino and buffalo, I would have to agree that the 90/650 load is anything but anemic.
(as noted in WW Greener's 9th edition)

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Vette447
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Re: .577 NE 3 inch - 650 gr / 90 gr Cordite Questions [Re: DarylS]
      #333344 - 12/10/19 07:15 AM

Fair enough. I agree that no .577 nitro round will be anemic is a strict sense. I guess I meant in a relative sense 🤪

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3DogMike
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Re: .577 NE 3 inch - 650 gr / 90 gr Cordite Questions [Re: Vette447]
      #333345 - 12/10/19 07:33 AM

Quote:

Fair enough. I agree that no .577 nitro round will be anemic is a strict sense. I guess I meant in a relative sense 🤪


My guess would be that the 90-650 loading (especially with a solid) would be just fine for all except brain shots on African elephants?
.........Never hunted Africa or an elephant, but the old time stories do talk of the BPE .577 6 Dram 650 loads working just fine on elephant with heart shots and hardened lead solids.
Marraki who occasionally still posts here loves the .577 650 grain load for Buffalo in Oz.
- Mike

--------------------
"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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DarylS
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Re: .577 NE 3 inch - 650 gr / 90 gr Cordite Questions [Re: 3DogMike]
      #333350 - 12/10/19 10:03 AM

Yeah - I do not recall any of the 'letters' back to Greener on the .577's use in Africa mentioning frontal brain shots. What about side brain shots?

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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grandveneur
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Re: .577 NE 3 inch - 650 gr / 90 gr Cordite Questions [Re: Vette447]
      #354104 - 06/06/21 04:27 AM

Quote:

I have been trying to do some research on a few top British maker .577 NE double rifles that were built around 1903 and the barrel flats are stamped:
.577 EX
90 Cordite - 650 Max

These are .577 NE 3 inch guns and I take they are regulated/proofed for the 90 gr Cordite / 650 gr Bullet load. How does this load compare to the full bore 750 gr loads? Is it anemic and not as useful as a dangerous game "stopper" rifle? I assume that shooting full bore loads would not be safe in these rifles, regardless of regulation?

Thanks!



I own an old double rifle from Webley & Scott, built 1909, which was initially regulated for an 650gr bullet and 90gr of cordite. It was reproofed again later for an 750gr bullet and 90gr of cordite. However, the previous owner always used Kynoch cartridges with full charge, 750gr bullet and 100gr of cordite, and I also used similar modern cartridges caliber 577NE several times in the rifle without any problems.

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DarylS
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Re: .577 NE 3 inch - 650 gr / 90 gr Cordite Questions [Re: grandveneur]
      #354114 - 06/06/21 09:21 AM

grandveneur, it regulated with 3 different loads?

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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grandveneur
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Re: .577 NE 3 inch - 650 gr / 90 gr Cordite Questions [Re: DarylS]
      #354124 - 06/06/21 05:20 PM

Quote:

grandveneur, it regulated with 3 different loads?



After more than a hundred years nobody knows what it was regulated with.One only know from the ammunition supply, as I get with it a lot of old caliber 577NE Kynoch cartridges from the fifties and sixties, what was shot in them before.

It shoots accurate with the modern factory loads from Wolfgang Romey and in the meantime with my reload, but which is also rather close to the maximum load.

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DarylS
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Re: .577 NE 3 inch - 650 gr / 90 gr Cordite Questions [Re: grandveneur]
      #354132 - 07/06/21 01:26 AM

I didn't ask what it was originally regulated with.

Simply question was "does it regulate with all 3 loads you described"?

You sort of answered with:

"It shoots accurate with the modern factory loads from Wolfgang Romey and in the meantime with my reload, but which is also rather close to the maximum load. "

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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transvaal
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Reged: 19/01/13
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Loc: South Carolina
Re: .577 NE 3 inch - 650 gr / 90 gr Cordite Questions [Re: grandveneur]
      #354193 - 09/06/21 01:46 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I have been trying to do some research on a few top British maker .577 NE double rifles that were built around 1903 and the barrel flats are stamped:
.577 EX
90 Cordite - 650 Max

These are .577 NE 3 inch guns and I take they are regulated/proofed for the 90 gr Cordite / 650 gr Bullet load. How does this load compare to the full bore 750 gr loads? Is it anemic and not as useful as a dangerous game "stopper" rifle? I assume that shooting full bore loads would not be safe in these rifles, regardless of regulation?

Thanks!



I own an old double rifle from Webley & Scott, built 1909, which was initially regulated for an 650gr bullet and 90gr of cordite. It was reproofed again later for an 750gr bullet and 90gr of cordite. However, the previous owner always used Kynoch cartridges with full charge, 750gr bullet and 100gr of cordite, and I also used similar modern cartridges caliber 577NE several times in the rifle without any problems.




This must be a "grand" old Webley & Scott double rifle and likely with the strength of Samson---- so to speak. Is it a screw grip top lever action? Those actions double rifles have a reputation as being the one of the strongest double rifles made by the English. Is it possible for you to post a photo of your Webley & Scott? They are highly desirable rifles.

I happen to own a copy of the original book published by the United Kingdom proof houses in 1954 and this book lists the load of the various Cordite proof loads used when proofing double rifles (probably to 1925 rules of proof--maybe earlier I do not know) --I do not know how much Cordite was produced after 1954. In the case of the .577 NE (both 3 inch and 3 1/4 inch cases) the amount of Cordite used to proof the rifle was 117gr with a 750gr projectile. Note: By comparison the .600 NE 3 inch case was proofed with 128gr of Cordite and a 900gr projectile; and the .500NE 3 1/4inch case was proofed with 93gr of Cordite and a 570gr projectile. Further all of these 3 proof loads were listed as using "greased cloth wadding" and as a matter of fact all of the proof loads for NITRO EXPRESS rifles lists greased cloth wadding.

As to the reproof of your Webley & Scott double rifle. Was it re-proofed in Birmingham or London.
The reason I ask is that in 1921 the Birmingham Proof Master, Colonel Charles Playfair, introduced a system of "private view marks" stamped on guns and rifles during proof. These marks consisted of crossed swords (or scepters) with a capital letter at the top (between the sword hilts) indicating a year (A=1July1921 to 30June1922) and a number of dots indicating the seniority of the inspector who viewed the firearm during proof. This letter code was used until 1941 (letter "V") when Colonel Playfair died. The use of these viewer marks returned under the Birmingham Proof Master R.P. Lees in 1950 and this time the date year letter was on the left of the swords and a "B" on the right (Birmingham). Letter A was 1950 and letter Z was 1974.

Do you see such a viewers mark on the barrel flats of your Webley & Scott double rife, if so you can date it's reproof year?

Kindest Regards;
Stephen Howell

Edited by transvaal (09/06/21 06:40 AM)

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grandveneur
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Re: .577 NE 3 inch - 650 gr / 90 gr Cordite Questions [Re: transvaal]
      #354211 - 09/06/21 05:32 PM

The Proofhouse was London.

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grandveneur
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Re: .577 NE 3 inch - 650 gr / 90 gr Cordite Questions [Re: grandveneur]
      #354212 - 09/06/21 05:43 PM



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transvaal
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Re: .577 NE 3 inch - 650 gr / 90 gr Cordite Questions [Re: grandveneur]
      #354215 - 09/06/21 11:16 PM

Just as I had hoped, it is a wonderful double rifle of the old school expert craftsmen. A real workhorse built for endurance.

You are lucky to have it. Thank you for posting the photos. Has it been re-stocked?

Kindest Regards;
Stephen Howell

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grandveneur
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Re: .577 NE 3 inch - 650 gr / 90 gr Cordite Questions [Re: transvaal]
      #354216 - 10/06/21 12:57 AM

Yes it is.

I bought the DR with the original stock, but this was in bad condition and with cracks. The rifle was before in Nairobi. A few years ago I had it re-stocked.

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4seventy
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Re: .577 NE 3 inch - 650 gr / 90 gr Cordite Questions [Re: grandveneur]
      #354231 - 10/06/21 06:50 AM

A Webley PHV-1.
Very nice double for sure!

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