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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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kzmd1860
.224 member


Reged: 07/10/19
Posts: 4
Loc: USA
Purdy 450 3 1/4 BPE
      #333203 - 09/10/19 01:38 AM


I am trying to develop a load for this 1877 rifle that was originally regulated for 3 3/4 dram of number 6 and paper patch bullet (no mention of size). I only assume that it was 300to 310.

Brass: jamison, fed 215 primer, swiss 1 1/2 : 120 Gr by volume, .3 card, 325 hand cast and lubed bullet.
At fifty yards , from a rest, 6 o'clock hold, registered 4 inches above and 3.75 from the left. The follow up shots the same as first. The third group was high and above the paper. I used a blow tube in between the shots.
your input will be much appreciated

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tinker
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Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: Purdy 450 3 1/4 BPE [Re: kzmd1860]
      #333204 - 09/10/19 01:42 AM

Have you tried 100 grains?
Have you tried a grease groove bullet?
Have you tried a bullet weighing 270 grains?
Have you tried a bullet weighing 365 grains?
Have you tried a greased felt wad between the over powder card and the bullet?
Are you using a chronograph?

While at the rest, are you holding the barrels and resting the hand on the rest, or are you resting the barrels on the rest?
How are you supporting the buttstock?


Is this Purdey rifle #9768?

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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kzmd1860
.224 member


Reged: 07/10/19
Posts: 4
Loc: USA
Re: Purdy 450 3 1/4 BPE [Re: tinker]
      #333219 - 09/10/19 05:22 AM

The chronograph :1675
at rest:holding the barrell and resting the hand on the rest
Bullet: hand cast and spg lubed. Have tried 350 Gr. rifle still shoots high
no grease cookies, just two news paper between the card and the bullet
the rifle is purdy 9768

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tinker
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: Purdy 450 3 1/4 BPE [Re: kzmd1860]
      #333221 - 09/10/19 05:57 AM

Looking at George's pitch for that rifle, and the markings on the labels it appears as if this set of barrels was set up for the Eley paper patched bullet.
There were more than one choice for weight - but your chronograph value looks low for the cartridge.
I'd expect to see something in the 1800 fps neighborhood.

I wouldn't try to run a load without a greased felt wad behind the bullet - but that doesn't answer the velocity issue.

Have you tried Swiss 2F or Goex Old Eyensford 1-1/2F or 2F?

Also - many fellows here including myself have gotten excellent results with Nitro for Black loadings and jacketed bullets.
It's important to choose a bullet with a relatively soft core and jacket. This isn't a pachyderm rifle after all, and there are many modern jacketed bullets that are great choices.
I've had great success with the Hornady 350gr Soft Nose Round Nose bullet.

What is the groove diameter of the barrels?

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27009
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Purdy 450 3 1/4 BPE [Re: tinker]
      #333226 - 09/10/19 06:52 AM

The Sierra and Hornady jacketed bullets along with the Speer copper plated 300gr. bullets should all do well at 1,800fps to 2,200fps.
My bro shot a 2yr. old moose with a 300gr. Hornady FN running 2,200fps from his .45 3 1/4" Sharps. Lyman listed that load as producing 24,000cup. The moose 'went' about 20feet and piled up. The bullet exited, leaving a 1" hole.
When the moose hit the ground, a 'bunch' of lung tissue squirted out the hole and made a "pink" ring around it. Very odd and the only time I have ever seen this. Within minutes, the 'ring' became a jellied ring I picked up by one side & it remained semi-solid.
I know of a pair of .450 3 1/4" Purdys that shoot to the sights, using 300gr. bullets, paper patched.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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3DogMike
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Reged: 29/01/15
Posts: 1465
Loc: Western Slope, Colorado USA
Re: Purdy 450 3 1/4 BPE [Re: tinker]
      #333227 - 09/10/19 06:57 AM

+1 What Tinker and Daryl have said....
Measure the twist and slug the bore about 2" in front of the chamber. Both my 1870's vintage Alexander Henry and Rigby .450's measure at .465" groove. The Henry is a tapered bore with Henry rifling, the Rigby is not tapered and has shallow Rigby (sorta Metford type?) rifling.

I would bet that your Purdey was regulated for a 270 grain bullet based on the 3 3/4 Dram loading.
According to Hoyem the standard hunting load was 110 grains of powder and a 270 grain bullet.

For Black Powder Loads:
Try a 300 grain paper patched or cast grease groove bullet and 110-120 grains of Swiss 1 1/2. Lighter bullets "should" get your velocities up as well while giving less muzzle rise so lower impact on the target.
You could even hollow point a 300 grain grease groove bullet to get the weight down to ~270 grains, or paper patch a 260-280 grain .45 handgun bullet up to size.
I would suggest at least a 1/8" grease cookie of SPG. Put a wax paper or bee brood foundation spacer on the powder (to keep the grease cookie from contaminating the powder), then the grease cookie, then a veg fibre or milk carton wad, then the bullet.
If you need to take up more space in the case between powder and bullet I would use grease soaked felt wads or .45 Caliber Wonder Wads.

IMO, the heavier bullets such as 325-350 grain are going to only work with Nitro for Black loadings. H4198 will be your "go to" powder choice and then case filler of Dacron, Kapok, or foam backer rod.
Of course as with all double rifles.....your mileage may vary.

- Mike

--------------------
"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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MikeRowe
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Reged: 23/11/11
Posts: 478
Loc: Arkansas, USA
Re: Purdy 450 3 1/4 BPE [Re: 3DogMike]
      #333235 - 09/10/19 10:08 AM

If it's a 3 3/4 dram rifle around 110 grains of Olde Eynsford 1 1/2F will get you close.
Swiss doesn't have enough oomph.
Use a .450 dia paper wrapped bullet 1 in 15 to 20 would be good and about 300 to 310 grains.
Don't worry about measuring the bore - it'll fill it. Grease cookie 3/16".

The rifle was probably regulated with 270's so the above load may shoot a little over the bead, but it'll be very close at 100 yards.

The load will tell you what to do.

Forget NFB's unless you want to try ringing a chamber.

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kzmd1860
.224 member


Reged: 07/10/19
Posts: 4
Loc: USA
Re: Purdy 450 3 1/4 BPE [Re: MikeRowe]
      #333276 - 10/10/19 08:10 AM



Many thanks to all of you for the advice and the courtesies that you have extended to me.
calibre 60 bore (.450) per factory letter
Groove diameter .458
twist 16
the following from Purdey:
" 1891: Nwe 450 barrels fitted andreshot with 450 (3 1/4) solid drawn case. 3 3/4 drams and Eley papered bullet."

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3DogMike
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Reged: 29/01/15
Posts: 1465
Loc: Western Slope, Colorado USA
Re: Purdy 450 3 1/4 BPE [Re: kzmd1860]
      #333279 - 10/10/19 11:34 AM

1-16......that’s seemingly an unusually quick twist.....interesting.

You KNOW that this rifle doesn’t exist without pictures!

- Mike

--------------------
"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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kzmd1860
.224 member


Reged: 07/10/19
Posts: 4
Loc: USA
Re: Purdy 450 3 1/4 BPE [Re: 3DogMike]
      #333280 - 10/10/19 11:56 AM


Mike:

I probably did not measure the twist rate correctly. I am very, for my shortcoming.

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tinker
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: Purdy 450 3 1/4 BPE [Re: kzmd1860]
      #333281 - 10/10/19 12:11 PM

Here is a link to the Champlin Arms listing for the rifle.


http://www.champlinarms.com/Default.aspx...&GunID=3170

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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3DogMike
.400 member


Reged: 29/01/15
Posts: 1465
Loc: Western Slope, Colorado USA
Re: Purdy 450 3 1/4 BPE [Re: tinker]
      #333286 - 10/10/19 02:32 PM

The Champlin Pictures:
Really nice rifle, you are going to enjoy it once you get the loads dialed in.
- Mike

--------------------
"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27009
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Purdy 450 3 1/4 BPE [Re: 3DogMike]
      #333289 - 10/10/19 05:45 PM

If the twist is faster than about 26", it will shoot at least 350gr. and maybe that is what it was regulated for. Does it not say in the case?
Not sure that the Ely paper patched bullet was.
8 1/2 pounds is very light, but maybe normal, I don't know..

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Huvius
.416 member


Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 3556
Loc: Colorado
Re: Purdy 450 3 1/4 BPE [Re: DarylS]
      #333296 - 11/10/19 01:35 AM

Remember, gents, this rifle was rebarreled in 1891 with steel barrels so could have a faster twist than we would expect from an 1870s BPE rifle.
The 3/4 dram increase in charge makes me think lighter in the bullet weight but with those barrels, could have very well gone to a heavier charge and a heavier bullet.
A chamber cast or some fire formed brass would be near to see to ascertain whether the bullet is supposed to be bore or groove diameter.

I ogled that rifle for a long time...
Glad somebody here has her now!

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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93x64mm
.416 member


Reged: 07/12/11
Posts: 4204
Loc: Nth QLD Australia
Re: Purdy 450 3 1/4 BPE [Re: Huvius]
      #333297 - 11/10/19 07:07 AM

You have one mighty piece of history there kzmd1860!
She certainly is one of a kind - exquisite workmanship to say the least, a real 'time capsule'!
I hope you get her regulated soon, there would be more than a few here that would love to try and get the best out of this little Princess....they'd be lining up if you let them!
Keep us abreast of your progress please.
Well done indeed.

Well Huvius it certainly must have hurt to let that one go - kzmd1860 certainly shares your motto now too!

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TH44
.375 member


Reged: 21/02/09
Posts: 734
Loc: West UK
Re: Purdy 450 3 1/4 BPE [Re: 93x64mm]
      #333302 - 11/10/19 08:39 AM

Having just picked up this thread (Alzheimers is here!) that is a very desirable rifle I wish you well in finding a good load

TH44

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Huvius
.416 member


Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 3556
Loc: Colorado
Re: Purdy 450 3 1/4 BPE [Re: 93x64mm]
      #333303 - 11/10/19 08:40 AM

Well, I didn’t own the rifle but did look at it online a lot and talked to George Caswell about it.
Just couldn’t pull my priorities in line enough to buy that one!

I would like to provide some swaged paper patched bullets of any weight needed if the rifle will take .458” patched bullets.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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MikeRowe
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Reged: 23/11/11
Posts: 478
Loc: Arkansas, USA
Re: Purdy 450 3 1/4 BPE [Re: Huvius]
      #333306 - 11/10/19 10:02 AM

Odds on it was regulated with factory Eley shells. I've seen them loaded 3 3/4 dr to 4 1/4 dr, and it probably used the 270 gr express bullet. You see more of those than anything else.

Build your shells just like the factory ones and it will probably shoot very nicely.

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