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vandeusenps
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450 BPE Brass Fitment Issues
      #332442 - 17/09/19 11:39 AM

Hello all,

I recently purchased an H&H double rifle in 450 BPE. Thinking the dimensions were the same, I purchased a set of Hornady dies and Hornady 450 nitro brass. Even after full length sizing, the Hornady brass will not chamber. The case head stops with about a 1/4” of the case sticking out of the chamber.

I tried chambering an original loaded Kynoch 450 NE and 450 BPE, both chambered fully with no issues.

Am I missing something here? Do I need a die set specifically made for 450 BPE? Any help would be greatly appreciated!

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3DogMike
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Re: 450 BPE Brass Fitment Issues [Re: vandeusenps]
      #332443 - 17/09/19 12:08 PM

1) did you do a chamber cast or other technique to confirm that your rifle really is a .450 3 1/4”?
2) “smoke” the case (“lampblack” or whatever) and rechamber to see where the fit is too close.
3) get out your vernier calipers and compare case head dimensions between your new brass and the originals.
-or-
4) just sell the rifle to me, I will dispose of it properly I promise.

NOTE:
There were no “standardized” case/ammo dimensions in the 1800’s, that only happened in the early 1900’s. Could be that you have a tight chamber. Custom sizing die may be one option.

- Mike

--------------------
"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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vandeusenps
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Re: 450 BPE Brass Fitment Issues [Re: 3DogMike]
      #332445 - 17/09/19 12:42 PM

Didn’t chamber cast, but I did determine that the brass was slightly larger about a half inch from the case head...I’m thinking a custom die is my only option at this point.

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dracb
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Re: 450 BPE Brass Fitment Issues [Re: vandeusenps]
      #332449 - 17/09/19 05:22 PM

Quote:

Hello all,

I recently purchased an H&H double rifle in 450 BPE. Thinking the dimensions were the same, I purchased a set of Hornady dies and Hornady 450 nitro brass. Even after full length sizing, the Hornady brass will not chamber. The case head stops with about a 1/4” of the case sticking out of the chamber.

I tried chambering an original loaded Kynoch 450 NE and 450 BPE, both chambered fully with no issues.

Am I missing something here? Do I need a die set specifically made for 450 BPE? Any help would be greatly appreciated!


So is the full sized brass that will not chamber loaded or is it not yet loaded after sizing?

--------------------
"The problems we face today are there because the people who work for a living are now outnumbered by those who vote for a living."

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vandeusenps
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Reged: 02/01/13
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Re: 450 BPE Brass Fitment Issues [Re: dracb]
      #332456 - 17/09/19 08:04 PM

The unloaded full length sized Hornady brass will not chamber, the original loaded Kynoch rounds both chamber fine (full nitro with steel solid and BPE with copper tubes lead).

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8borerifle
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Re: 450 BPE Brass Fitment Issues [Re: vandeusenps]
      #332458 - 17/09/19 10:01 PM

I had the exact same thing happen to me. Tried the cases in a .450 nitro 1902 Webley falling block, a Holland and Holland .450 underlever hammer DR and a Purdey top lever Whitworth barreled .450 3 1/4". Cases would not fit in any of them! I called Hornady and they sent me a new sizing die, still would not work! I went to some old Bell brass and all was well!

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DoubleD
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Re: 450 BPE Brass Fitment Issues [Re: vandeusenps]
      #332459 - 17/09/19 10:34 PM

Quote:

Didn’t chamber cast, but I did determine that the brass was slightly larger about a half inch from the case head...I’m thinking a custom die is my only option at this point.



No, trim the brass to length...

--------------------
DD, Ret.

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Huvius
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Re: 450 BPE Brass Fitment Issues [Re: DoubleD]
      #332475 - 18/09/19 02:53 AM

One thing you could try is to press your brass into the die without a shell holder as to size farther down the case.
Do this without an expanded pin in the die.
Will require using a dowel or rod of some sort to knock out of the die but worth a try.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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degoins
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Re: 450 BPE Brass Fitment Issues [Re: Huvius]
      #332477 - 18/09/19 02:57 AM

I had the same issue with my AH double. The guy I bought it from sent me some Hornady cases he turned down with a lathe. Rocky Mountain Cartridge says they'll make me up some based on one of my fired cases for 100.00 per 20. You may want to go that route.

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vandeusenps
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Re: 450 BPE Brass Fitment Issues [Re: degoins]
      #332479 - 18/09/19 03:07 AM

Thanks all for the recommendations...I’ve tried sizing w/out shellholder and didn’t have any luck. I’ve ordered a .510 lee bullet sizing die that another guy used with the same problem. Hopefully this will smooth things out enough to chamber.

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3DogMike
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Re: 450 BPE Brass Fitment Issues [Re: vandeusenps]
      #332482 - 18/09/19 04:41 AM

Quote:

Thanks all for the recommendations...I’ve tried sizing w/out shellholder and didn’t have any luck. I’ve ordered a .510 lee bullet sizing die that another guy used with the same problem. Hopefully this will smooth things out enough to chamber.


Not sure what a .510” bullet sizing die will accomplish? You do not for sure know that bullet/neck fit is the problem.....

Certainly seems to me that the prudent course of action is either a chamber cast or lampblack a sized case with bullet seated to really determine where the problem is. Otherwise you are flying in the dark.
Base diameter of a .450 3 1/4 from various sources is approximately .544”-.548” depending upon manufacturers tolerances, and if the case head/base diameter is just a skosh too large a machinist could easily make you a sizing ring to swage the offending area down a couple of thousandths.

I personally would not do it to a fine double rifle, but some guys would just get a SAMMI/CIP spec chamber reamer and relieve the chambers so as to fit current Hornady brass.

Just my 2˘

- Mike

EDIT: Just measured the case heads on both new Hornady brass and some 1920’s vintage .450 3 1/4 NfB.
Hornady = .543in front of the rim and .478” at neck with standard .458” jackets bullet seated
Kynoch original “Nitro for Black” = .542” in front of the rim and .490” at neck as factory loaded with original PP bullet.



--------------------
"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: 450 BPE Brass Fitment Issues [Re: 3DogMike]
      #332487 - 18/09/19 08:08 AM

There were several interpretations of the .450 3-1/4" cartridge. Many makes of rifles will accommodate the current "standard" .450, which is the same as the .450 Nitro Express.

However, there are older rifles that are made to different chamber dimensions, often tighter. I first encountered this with my Alex. Henry double .450 BPE. I had the same problem of brass not fully chambering.

When that problem arose I contacted RCBS and spoke to the head of their custom die shop. He was very familiar with the problem and asked me to send chamber casts. He said he was sure he had the proper reamer and could make the determination from the casts. I did what he asked and soon received a perfect custom sizing die, which eliminated the problem.

I also have a .450 BPE Holland & Holland. It requires this "small base" sizing die and will not chamber a modern "standard" cartridge. Yours probably was chambered to the same specs as mine.

The same issue exists with the .450/400 3-1/4" cartridge. My Woodward .450/400 3-1/4" BPE double is chambered to modern "standard" dimensions.

Later I acquired my Army & Navy Farquharson single shot in .450/400 3-1/4" Nitro Express. It will not chamber a cartridge sized in a "standard" die. Fortunately, the custom .450 die mentioned above is perfect to size the body of the .450/400 for my Farquharson.

You will need a custom die, and that's all there is to it. I think you should contact RCBS. On the other hand, I am told that Hornady now has a custom die shop. You might get in touch with them.

I hope this helps. It is the solution to your problem. Your brass is fine, it just needs to be sized to proper dimensions. If you are going to play this game we play you can't be scared off by the need for a custom die occasionally!

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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3DogMike
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Re: 450 BPE Brass Fitment Issues [Re: CptCurl]
      #332489 - 18/09/19 09:24 AM

QUOTE Curl:
“....You will need a custom die, and that's all there is to it. I think you should contact RCBS.....”
+1, getting the old rifles running is sometimes not for the faint of heart.

Unfortunately RCBS no longer offers custom dies, Vista Outdoors (the new conglomerate owners) told them to pull the plug on that.

Your options are CH4D, Redding, or Hornady and I’m not sure about Hornady, best call all of them and prepare to wait.


- Mike

--------------------
"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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DarylS
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Re: 450 BPE Brass Fitment Issues [Re: 3DogMike]
      #332491 - 18/09/19 09:52 AM

Personally, I would check Hornady first, then Redding.

CH4D is likely to send their "Standard" and not cut a specified set of dies from fired brass. This is what they did to my friend. I sent the dies back with another 3 fired cases and they returned the "STANDARD" dies, untouched.

I solved the problem for both of us by buying oversized dies for a different round and simply neck sizing for both our rifles.

Hornady, Redding or maybe even Lee of Lyman might work better for you.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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vandeusenps
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Re: 450 BPE Brass Fitment Issues [Re: DarylS]
      #332500 - 18/09/19 11:09 AM

Thanks for the replies...I smoked the brass tonight and put them in the chamber. Rub marks are about 1.5” from the head. Hopefully the lee sizer can iron out the area enough to chamber a round so I can at least shoot it a few times while I wait on a custom sizing die.

I will probably go with Hornady. Turnaround time with them is 3 to 4 months. I’ve always had good luck with CH4D, I recently had them make a set of 297/250 Rook for me, they are great dies, but turnaround from them was just shy of 2 years.

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Wayne59
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Re: 450 BPE Brass Fitment Issues [Re: vandeusenps]
      #332502 - 18/09/19 11:38 AM

I don't know if capt curl would do it but maybe if you pay him he might size a case for you so you would know if it is going to work. I would rather see if it works before I spend money chasing a solution.

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3DogMike
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Re: 450 BPE Brass Fitment Issues [Re: Wayne59]
      #332503 - 18/09/19 12:08 PM

Quote:

I don't know if capt curl would do it but maybe if you pay him he might size a case for you so you would know if it is going to work. I would rather see if it works before I spend money chasing a solution.


+1 excellent idea

--------------------
"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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OahuKaneohe
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Re: 450 BPE Brass Fitment Issues [Re: 3DogMike]
      #332504 - 18/09/19 12:53 PM

My Alex Henry 450 NE had a tight chamber and a Lawson 450 BPE with the same issue. Both got
sent to JJ in Oklahoma to be reamed for modern brass. Simple around $200.00 each. My two Holland
450 BPE and a Rigby chamber modern brass. I've used 450 dies from CH4D, Hornady, and RCBS. RCBS won't make custom dies, and CH4D is one year waiting period. JJ has a fast turn around time.

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: 450 BPE Brass Fitment Issues [Re: OahuKaneohe]
      #332506 - 18/09/19 07:51 PM

Quote:

My Alex Henry 450 NE had a tight chamber and a Lawson 450 BPE with the same issue. Both got
sent to JJ in Oklahoma to be reamed for modern brass. Simple around $200.00 each. My two Holland
450 BPE and a Rigby chamber modern brass. I've used 450 dies from CH4D, Hornady, and RCBS. RCBS won't make custom dies, and CH4D is one year waiting period. JJ has a fast turn around time.



I can appreciate what you say, but I'm not keen on altering vintage rifles. I believe in tailoring the ammo to the rifle, not vice versa. JMHO YMMV.

If the OP wants to send me a few sticks of his Hornady brass I would be glad to run it through my custom sizing die to see the result. I can almost guarantee it will fit. I expect his H&H was chambered to the same specs as my H&H. BTW, what is the s/n of your H&H? Mine is 8759.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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vandeusenps
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Re: 450 BPE Brass Fitment Issues [Re: CptCurl]
      #332508 - 18/09/19 08:34 PM

Quote:

Quote:

My Alex Henry 450 NE had a tight chamber and a Lawson 450 BPE with the same issue. Both got
sent to JJ in Oklahoma to be reamed for modern brass. Simple around $200.00 each. My two Holland
450 BPE and a Rigby chamber modern brass. I've used 450 dies from CH4D, Hornady, and RCBS. RCBS won't make custom dies, and CH4D is one year waiting period. JJ has a fast turn around time.



I can appreciate what you say, but I'm not keen on altering vintage rifles. I believe in tailoring the ammo to the rifle, not vice versa. JMHO YMMV.

If the OP wants to send me a few sticks of his Hornady brass I would be glad to run it through my custom sizing die to see the result. I can almost guarantee it will fit. I expect his H&H was chambered to the same specs as my H&H. BTW, what is the s/n of your H&H? Mine is 8759.

Curl



Curl, my rifle is 8136. Do you know what year yours was made? Using linear extrapolation with two other known serial numbers, I approximate mine to be made about 1883.

Thanks for the offer to size my brass. I’ve got a few more things to try but I might take you up on that!

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: 450 BPE Brass Fitment Issues [Re: vandeusenps]
      #332512 - 19/09/19 12:45 AM

My .450 was November 12, 1885.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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degoins
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Re: 450 BPE Brass Fitment Issues [Re: CptCurl]
      #332515 - 19/09/19 02:48 AM

I tried the CH4D die myself...….didn't work.

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OahuKaneohe
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Re: 450 BPE Brass Fitment Issues [Re: degoins]
      #332518 - 19/09/19 05:01 AM

The two Holland 450 BPE:
14,040 made in 1892 unaltered
12,205 also unaltered

25 yard shot groups are posted in the Archive section. Both shoot well with 4198 loads.

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OahuKaneohe
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Re: 450 BPE Brass Fitment Issues [Re: OahuKaneohe]
      #332519 - 19/09/19 05:07 AM

Another option is to have Lee Precision make a custom die set.
Go to their web site for instructions, I have a set of 50-110 Winchester Express dies on order.

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vandeusenps
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Re: 450 BPE Brass Fitment Issues [Re: OahuKaneohe]
      #332564 - 20/09/19 09:10 PM

Update:

Tried the Lee .510 bullet sizer last night and was able to get the brass to chamber! Now at least I can fire some cases and send them off to Hornady for a custom die. I’m pretty happy that I’ll actually be able to shoot the rifle!

I purchased three different bullets to try....grease ring and paper patch bullets from Buffalo Arms, and also some 350 gr Woodleighs. Thanks to all who contributed to this post!

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