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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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MikeRowe
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Reged: 23/11/11
Posts: 478
Loc: Arkansas, USA
Re: John Dickson 500 BPE hammer gun [Re: CJF]
      #345080 - 14/09/20 03:44 AM

5 drams of Olde Eynsford 1 1/2F, a 3/16" lube cookie and a paper wrapped .502" bullet 1 in 16-20, and it'll probably shoot.

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CJF
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Re: John Dickson 500 BPE hammer gun [Re: MikeRowe]
      #345433 - 29/09/20 06:15 AM

Finally had this out at the range yesterday to try my attempts at loading for this rifle and the 500 BPE.

Load was 137gr FFg Old Eynsford and a unpatched .500 370gr cast bullet. It's on the paper at 50 yards, but not regulating. From Graeme Wright's book, I believe I have too low of velocity. Since there's no room left in the case, I'm guessing this means trying 1) a lighter projectile, 2) FFFg, or 3) paper patching what I have now with the 370gr cast bullet for a tighter seal and less friction. (Mike - I'd already ordered powder when I saw your response, so I couldn't try 1 1/2 F.)

I'm planning on loading 6 more with my original try, since I was a bit anxious about shooting this the first time (first time ever shooting a double rifle!), plus 6 paper patched, with same charge, then 6 patched with FFFg.

Any other suggestions? I'd like to see if I can get these 370s to group before trying a different bullet.

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tinker
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Reged: 12/03/05
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Re: John Dickson 500 BPE hammer gun [Re: CJF]
      #345434 - 29/09/20 06:53 AM

You note here that this is the first time you've shot a double rifle

Hold is critical to getting a double rifle to shoot properly.

Did you shoot from a rest?
Did you use a Lead Sled?
Did you shoot off bags?

Anything that isn't a proper hunting hold on the rifle can affect (greatly) the rifle's performance on the target.

Bullet fit VS groove diameter can affect the internal Ballistics. What is the groove diameter? What size did you size those bullets?

Can you describe how the printed target looked?
Shots crossing?
Groups apart?
Good groups from each barrel?

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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3DogMike
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Reged: 29/01/15
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Re: John Dickson 500 BPE hammer gun [Re: CJF]
      #345435 - 29/09/20 06:57 AM

Fun to shoot right?
You’ve left out a few details:
- Bullet diameter?
- Bullet temper (hardness)?
- Bullet lubed with proper Black Powder lube?
- “not regulating”...meaning what....shooting apart?, crossing? (I’d guess shooting apart)
- individual barrel groups are OK, or shooting all over the place.
- ever get a good measure of groove diameter?
- chronograph velocities?
- wiping between shots or blow tube?
- powder charge....just poured, drop tube, or powder compression? Weighed 137 grains or 5Drams by BP measure?
- bench rest or off sticks? Hand between forend/barrels and whatever it is rested on?

Just a start and important to know.
- Mike

EDIT: I see Tinker beat me to the keyboard by a couple of minutes

--------------------
"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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MikeRowe
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Reged: 23/11/11
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Re: John Dickson 500 BPE hammer gun [Re: 3DogMike]
      #345442 - 29/09/20 10:33 AM

Yes, patching the bullet will really help!

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CJF
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Re: John Dickson 500 BPE hammer gun [Re: MikeRowe]
      #345443 - 29/09/20 10:58 AM

Hi Tinker & 3DogMike -

I'll try to provide more information and answer your questions.

Regarding the firing position, I was at a bench, shooting off a Caldwell bag (not a lead sled). Left hand under the forearm, but NOT grasping hard or pulling in. (Similar to this bag: https://www.amazon.com/Caldwell-Deadshot-Construction-Resistance-Shooting/dp/B000PG7VRO)

Regarding the bore, I confess I don't have great confidence in my measurements, but I came up with 0.504 land and perhaps 0.508 groove. Bullets measured 0.502-0.503 and were just lubed, not paper patched (yet). They had a gas check. Cast. 370 grain. I do not have a sizer.

Charge was measured by volume. Compressed 1/8-1/4" inch when seating projectile. Standard rifle primers. After pouring, I tapped the case a few times to settle the charge before seating bullet on top of a cardboard wad cut by hand (so rough).

Lube was ancient Thompson Center lube from 30 years ago when I hunted with a flintlock, spread in the bullets grooves and also under the bullet. Rounds were fired 24 hours after loading.

Brass was new Hornady.

Results were much better for left barrel, with all 3 striking no more than 2.5" from centerline point of aim. First shot was low 2", left 1.5". 2nd was low 1/2", left 1/2", 3rd was high 2.25", left 2".

Right were all further out from POA, at outside ring (6") spaced starting at 2pm up thru 1pm.

I'll get a picture up later. I am a decent shot and I knew while shooting this that I could do better (I was a bit nervous and excited.)

I will double check my volume measure for the charge before repeating.

Chris

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CJF
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Re: John Dickson 500 BPE hammer gun [Re: CJF]
      #345444 - 29/09/20 11:18 AM

Trying to post pics from imgur instead of photobucket [image][/image]

Left side = left barrel, with 1 low, 2 high, 3 near bull.

Right side = right barrel, with 1 being lowest, furthest right, 2 higher, left, 3 highest, closest to 1pm. (sorry I didn't photo the target after noting the sequence. I'm learning and I'll get there!)





Edited by CJF (29/09/20 11:21 AM)

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3DogMike
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Re: John Dickson 500 BPE hammer gun [Re: CJF]
      #345454 - 30/09/20 12:48 AM

Quote:

Hi Tinker & 3DogMike -

I'll try to provide more information and answer your questions.

(snip).......
Regarding the bore, I confess I don't have great confidence in my measurements, but I came up with 0.504 land and perhaps 0.508 groove. Bullets measured 0.502-0.503 and were just lubed, not paper patched (yet). They had a gas check. Cast. 370 grain. I do not have a sizer.
.......(snip)

Chris



Chris,
Nice looking rifle, so more pictures please!

Being "not sure" of bullet and groove could be a possible root of your issue:
"don't have great confidence" .....bullets are .502-.503 while lands-grooves are "perhaps" .504-.508, and you do not mention bullet hardness. (Very shallow rifling?)
Typical wheel weights/Lyman #2 or commercial hard cast grease groove bullets better be at least groove diameter.
You can get good results with undersized bullets with black powder if you use soft bullets that get slugged up by the BP when fired.
Talking about bullets cast of 1-30 or 1-20 tin/lead.

Paper patch bullets and cast of soft mix are an alternative if you are already familiar with the quirks of making and using them.

You would be miles ahead to get some no kidding accurate measurements of bullets and bore/groove dimensions then go from there.
- Mike

--------------------
"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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tinker
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Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
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Re: John Dickson 500 BPE hammer gun [Re: 3DogMike]
      #345468 - 30/09/20 10:50 AM

If you have a proper machine shop in your area, they can determine for you the groove diameter.

Are you running the under sized bullets because that's all you have?
With your fired / not resized cases, that bullet will pass through the neck with no problems, right?

Patching could get them to fit.

Next time at the range, hold the rifle like you're shooting it in a hunting situation.
Good isometric hold like it counts.
You can rest the back of your support hand on a rest or tripod.

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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3DogMike
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Re: John Dickson 500 BPE hammer gun [Re: tinker]
      #350511 - 18/02/21 02:01 PM

Wondering whatever happened with this Dickson? Nothing since September, and no more pictures
- Mike

--------------------
"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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CJF
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Re: John Dickson 500 BPE hammer gun [Re: 3DogMike]
      #374540 - 27/02/23 07:13 AM

Right now the Dickson's worm eaten horn butt plate is being repaired (or if that fails, replaced). Apologies for going dark on that rifle. It is a beautiful piece. I got distracted by a 450 BPE Reilly double last year.

I've just retired, so I'm finally circling back to a bunch of projects, including getting the Dickson to shoot as well as it looks.

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CJF
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Re: John Dickson 500 BPE hammer gun [Re: CJF]
      #375681 - 30/03/23 06:48 AM

A quick update...

First off, apologies to Mike Rowe for not responding to your advice to paper patch. I did buy the book on that and will try it once the Dickson is back in my hands. I'm having its horn butt plate repaired (if possible) or replaced so I can shoot it without the fugly leather strap on butt cover I've been using to protect the worm eaten original plate from being further damaged. That's in process now.

Second, I was fortunate to have been able to pick up a second 500 BPE double. This is a Woodward from 1892 that just arrived from Holts November 2022 auction. I now have twice the reason to work up loads. The rifle is nice. Some renewed finishes but not overdone in my view. Rebounding hammers. Jones undercover. Brilliant bores. I will post pictures on a new thread once I get it outside in the sun at the range. (I was also very lucky to have scored the Dickson 250 rook in the same auction. That one is simply gorgeous. Of course no one seems to have 250 rook dies in stock...)

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CJF
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Re: John Dickson 500 BPE hammer gun [Re: CJF]
      #377499 - 23/06/23 12:34 PM

I just received a history of this gun from Dickson’s. Surprised to learn it was regulated for 4.5 drams of CH#6 powder. This is 4.5*27.34 grains of black powder right? This is lighter than I thought.

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3DogMike
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Re: John Dickson 500 BPE hammer gun [Re: CJF]
      #377500 - 23/06/23 01:35 PM

According to the Bill Fleming book "British Sporting Rifle Cartridges" some of the early Eley loadings for the coiled brass .500 3" and drawn brass .500 3" were 120 & 126 grains of powder and variously 340 or 380 grain bullets (Paper Patched of course). The 136 grain (5 Drams) loadings came a bit later.
- Mike

--------------------
"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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MikeRowe
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Reged: 23/11/11
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Re: John Dickson 500 BPE hammer gun [Re: 3DogMike]
      #377546 - 25/06/23 09:45 AM

That is great news you have the regulation load. Even if it's only half a dram less, anything is a help to take a bit of the bite out of a bloody .500!

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CJF
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Re: John Dickson 500 BPE hammer gun [Re: MikeRowe]
      #377661 - 29/06/23 10:01 AM

Looking forward to trying this out when we are back from Colorado

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3DogMike
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Reged: 29/01/15
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Re: John Dickson 500 BPE hammer gun [Re: CJF]
      #377662 - 29/06/23 10:58 AM

Quote:

Looking forward to trying this out when we are back from Colorado


Chris,
where and when are you in Colorado? Check your PM's
- Mike

--------------------
"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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Huvius
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Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 3556
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Re: John Dickson 500 BPE hammer gun [Re: 3DogMike]
      #377663 - 29/06/23 11:03 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Looking forward to trying this out when we are back from Colorado


Chris,
where and when are you in Colorado? Check your PM's
- Mike



Yeah!!
Let's go shooting!!

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: John Dickson 500 BPE hammer gun [Re: Huvius]
      #377666 - 29/06/23 09:38 PM

There's nothing unusual about the 4-1/2 dram load. Here is the charge card for my Purdey .500 2-3/4" BPE built in 1894 for Sir Atherton Edward Jenkins:





Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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CJF
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Re: John Dickson 500 BPE hammer gun [Re: CptCurl]
      #377709 - 02/07/23 06:18 AM

Hey Curl, neat charge label. I wish I had the case for my rifle and a label like that. I had no experience with double rifles before getting this one and what I was reading suggested heavier loads, so I was happy to hear about another avenue for trial.

Mike and Huvious, I’m probably not going to be able to make a meet up work this trip given the commitments made already. I’m really liking this RV traveling so far so I’m sure we will be back. Hopefully when temps are lower! (Most of the drive was way hotter than back in NC)

Regards
Chris

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CJF
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Re: John Dickson 500 BPE hammer gun [Re: CJF]
      #379446 - 19/09/23 09:33 AM

I picked up this rifle and the horn butt plate repair was a success. Also laid in a supply of 120 500 3" cases for the Dickson and the Woodward so I don't run into the issue I was having with the 450 where I couldn't find brass (I am very grateful for the help Bwanabobftw gave me there!)

A range trip is in the future, behind some other projects. I'm trying to find an accurate load to use in my takedown AH single for a shoot in mid-October and have just finished loading a few different 360 BPE loads (all nitro for black). This supply will also support taking the recently repaired early GE Lewis 360 park rifle out for it's first outing with me (that one was described in a different thread...basically a neat gun with loose ribs which have since been relayed (sp?)

I will also be trying the 450 BPE load that worked well in my Reilly in a new-to-me Dickson 450 double. That rifle isn't as nice as this 500 BPE first quality gun, as it is a 2nd quality rifle with many more trips to the field than the 500. A third double will be on this outing as well -- a very good condition 3rd quality Alexander Henry double in 450 BPE. Metal is very very nice. Wood has some bumps but also nice, with attractive grain for a plain gun. More on these later. My intent is to get working loads for two of these three 450s done by November's deer season, when I'm heading north to Minnesota to hunt with a friend (who will be using one my doubles as well.)

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