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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Muzzleloaders & Blackpowder
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ironoxide
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Reged: 14/08/19
Posts: 28
Loc: Poland
How to make the bullet stay on powder - fast twist double.
      #331200 - 15/08/19 06:48 PM

Hi all,

Does anyone know about any reliable method to make sure the second slug/bullet stays on the powder after shooting the other barrel in a double rifle? Please don't answer by recommending shooting patched round balls - sure it solves the problem, but what if one wants to make use of slugs in a fast twist barrel that was created for the purpose? Did anyone try using tight fitting cork wads on top of the bullet?

In my muzzle loading side by side smoothbore shotgun I top shot loads with a tight fitting card/thick paper wad. That is enough to stop an ounce (sometimes more) of shot from moving up the barrel. Unfortunately I haven't got them in the right caliber to try in the double rifle. Before I invest a lot of time into making a wad cutter, finding the right card/paper etc, I thought to ask if anyone did that before and perhaps found out if accuracy is worse, or no different with such wads?

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DarylSModerator
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26992
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: How to make the bullet stay on powder - fast twist double. [Re: ironoxide]
      #331220 - 16/08/19 02:51 AM

You could try that, putting a card over the bullet. It would help, but likely would not eliminate the 'problem' if it isn't tight enough. You would have to test for accuracy of that first and second shot, no matter what you try. BP is more forgiving of small changes, than smokeless in modern guns, though.

I've not shot bullets in a SxS ML, so cannot speak from experience on the use of bullets in them.

Questions come to mind that may help identify potential solutions and problems.

Are the bullets you use engraving on the rifling when loaded or are they a loose fit?

What calibre is the gun? What are your powder charges?

Have you loaded both barrels, firing one, then reloading it and firing twice and finding the 'other' barrel's slug moved forward?

Perhaps it is tight enough to not move. I would still be concerned about this though. It would only have to happen once.

Friend of mine had a .50 caliber production rifle, that had an oversized bore for the commercial (mould) bullets he wanted to shoot. When walking with the muzzle pointed down, the bullet, loaded in a clean barrel would 'work' it's way down the bore and just barrel hang up at the muzzle with 1/2 the bullet sticking out. Once spotted, he found an easy 'fix'.

He merely wrapped the "first" bullet with a cigarette paper. That held it in the bore due to increasing the dia. slightly. Once the bore was fouled with that one shot, the bullets were tighter due to the fouling & would not 'work' forward. This was a single shot rifle, though.

Could you possibly wrap the bullet in onion-skin or cigarette paper, or perhaps bump it up so one or more bearing bands engraved to fit tighter in the bore?

Bullet movement is a serious problem. I would experiment with various means to keep the bullet on the powder.

Wad over, patched, expanded and engraving when loaded.

An engraving in the rifling when loaded (mechanical fitted) bullet should stay on the powder. If bumped hard enough by the rod after seating on the powder, it should obturate enough to hold steady- but - needs to be tested, carefully.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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ironoxide
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Reged: 14/08/19
Posts: 28
Loc: Poland
Re: How to make the bullet stay on powder - fast twist double. [Re: DarylS]
      #331241 - 16/08/19 06:53 PM

I ordered few thicknesses of cork in sheets and I plan to cut some tight fitting wads from it. Although a card wad works great in a smooth bore I thought cork will have more purchase on walls of a rifled barrel so I'll try it first. I'm surprised there isn't a lot of people who resolved this problem already. Judging by the number of posts on different forums muzzleloading double rifles (even those with fast-twist made for slugs barrels) are quite popular.

My gun is a Pedersoli Kodiak Express Mk6 for which I have two sets of barrels, a short 24 inch .58 cal (1:48 twist) and a longer 28 inch .50 cal(1:24 twist). In .58 the powder charge is 120 grains, in .50 100 grains. I found .58 really likes moderately tight REALs and .50 likes maxi balls. With both calibres and projectiles the bullet is engraved by the rifling, but once initially engraved at the muzzle I can push the bullet the rest of the way with a slight push of one finger on the ramrod.

I tend to load both barrels, shoot both and then load both again rather than reload the fired barrel repeatedly. Currently I'm checking if the second bullet moved before firing the second barrel. The bullet almost never moves. I think I had it move twice in .58 and once in .50. I probably shot close to 30 times each side of each barrel with those bullets on the shooting range. I haven't done any walking with the rifle loaded. However, although the bullets almost never move I haven't got enough confidence in them not moving to for example load the gun, spend half a day walking with it. Shoot one barrel and then the next. I'm looking for some solution that will ensure they never move at all.

I tried wrapping an undersized minie bullet in paper when I was testing all kinds of projectiles to discover what the gun likes the most. Unfortunately it doesn't shoot minie style bullets accurately wrapped or not, but judging by the resistance felt when loading it would definitely work to stop the movement. If the wads cause bad accuracy I'll be trying paper wrapped maxis or maybe a a 50 cal government bullet next.

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tinker
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Reged: 12/03/05
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Re: How to make the bullet stay on powder - fast twist double. [Re: ironoxide]
      #331243 - 16/08/19 08:34 PM

What alloy are you using?

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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DarylSModerator
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Re: How to make the bullet stay on powder - fast twist double. [Re: tinker]
      #331248 - 17/08/19 01:02 AM

I'd go with the cork wads and see what happens as far to accuracy.
If they only move forward sometimes, then the cork should work.
After being fouled, there should be no movement, but I'd still use the wad.
My .58 Kodiak shot well (parallel) with 110 2F GOEX., a .020" denim patch
and .574" pure lead ball. It also shot well enough (3" to 4" groups at 100 meters)
with a .562" WW ball and the same patch, same powder charge.
Some guns like Minnies, while others refuse to shoot them.

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bstrick
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Reged: 02/02/09
Posts: 87
Loc: MI
Re: How to make the bullet stay on powder - fast twist double. [Re: DarylS]
      #332293 - 13/09/19 04:50 AM

Not sure if you will get enough friction from thin cork wads.

Don't be afraid to glue them together in a stack up, or just use some real corks. 3/8s or even a 1/2" thick.

Mark your rod, so that they get pushed all the way down.

Paper patched bullet, how tight do they fit?

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DarylSModerator
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26992
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Re: How to make the bullet stay on powder - fast twist double. [Re: bstrick]
      #332298 - 13/09/19 05:58 AM

1st off, I would find a different bullet for the .50.
If you are thinking of large game, we found maxi-balls next to useless on moose. They would not go in a straight line
after impact and instead of expanding, the front end collapsed into the huge grease groove behind it. This is also likely
why they deviated from going in a straight line.(along with the 48" twist bls. the boys were using.
The RCBS 450gr. or a similar bullet would be my choice.
The NOE 404gr. looks promising, as does the RCBS 340gr. from Buffalo Arms.
https://www.buffaloarms.com/500-50-340-swc-340-grn-rcbs-bullet-mould-rcb82087

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Tom_H
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Reged: 13/04/05
Posts: 336
Loc: Southeast, NY
Re: How to make the bullet stay on powder - fast twist double. [Re: DarylS]
      #347038 - 22/11/20 01:47 AM

Try this one.

https://leeprecision.com/mold-dc-c501-440-rf.html.

Inexpensive and accurate in one rifle I tried it in. Shot a 180lb pig with it at 20yds. Went through both shoulders and the 6" tree behind it.

Used 1 newspaper and 1 felt wad over 80gr ff.

I took a cutoff wheel (didn't feel like setting up the lathe) and opened up the top driving band on the mold so it would engrave on loading (.505?)

Good luck

Tom

--------------------
Carbonation without fermentation is tyranny

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tinker
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Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: How to make the bullet stay on powder - fast twist double. [Re: Tom_H]
      #347039 - 22/11/20 03:43 AM

Tom get into your post and edit the period out of the end of the link to the Lee website

https://leeprecision.com/mold-dc-c501-440-rf.html

That's a good looking bullet



--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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DarylSModerator
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26992
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: How to make the bullet stay on powder - fast twist double. [Re: tinker]
      #347042 - 22/11/20 04:04 AM

Yes - it would need to be used without the gas check, of course. I would have preferred to see a larger grease groove. That could be altered with a lathe.
It's also easy to see why Tom would grind out the top band a bit for a tighter fit of that band - a good idea.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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