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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Rifles
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buckstix
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Reged: 07/11/12
Posts: 1243
Loc: Whitetail Country
ID help Wanted - is this a Haenel or a sporter 88 Commission
      #331128 - 13/08/19 08:28 PM

ID help Wanted - is this a Haenel or a sporter 88 Commission rifle ? its a 7x57 cal

Hello,

I recently acquired another interesting rifle. I can't tell if this is a Haenel, or a Custom sporter built on an 88 Commission Rifle. Caliber is 7x57. Serial number on the bottom of the barrel and butt-plate with last 3 digits penciled in the barrel channel of the stock. No other markings except those I've shown.

Any help would be appreciated.

thanks

















--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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93x64mm
.416 member


Reged: 07/12/11
Posts: 4199
Loc: Nth QLD Australia
Re: ID help Wanted - is this a Haenel or a sporter 88 Commission [Re: buckstix]
      #331149 - 14/08/19 06:13 AM

Grand piece there Buckstix & in a good calibre too!
I presume you have 'bloc clips' (I hope I used the right term this time)for this old girl to operate?

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kuduae
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Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1792
Loc: middle of Germany
Re: ID help Wanted - is this a Haenel or a sporter 88 Commission [Re: 93x64mm]
      #331170 - 14/08/19 09:18 PM

From 1890 to 1896 the Suhl companies C.G. Haenel and V.C. Schilling made about 250 000 M88 carbines for the German armies. After the governmet contracts were done, they continued to make M88 actioned rifles and carbines in varius chamberings for export, mostly to China and South America, and for civilian sales too. Up to WW1 they made sporting rifles on their actions too. These sporters came in as many grades and calibers as Heinz mixed pickles to suit tastes and budgets of customers. Economy models came with round barrels , while high grades had half octagonal, ribbed barrels, fancy wood and engraving. Though Mauser 98 actions and the improved Haenel model 1900 and 1909 became available, many hunters preferred the cheaper and familiar (from their military service) M88 actioned sporters. So the Suhl guntrade, including Haenel, continued to offer such sporters. As customary with the German guntrade then, such sporters are often not openly marked by the real Suhl maker. This allowed a retailer or wholesaler to offer them as "their own special product".
From the 1911 ALFA catalog:

This is such a rifle, built in Suhl on a new made M88 carbine action. It is a basic grade sporter with just the double set trigger and a bit of engraving added. As the serial number is marked on the buttplate, it was made by Haenel 1912 - 14.

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buckstix
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Reged: 07/11/12
Posts: 1243
Loc: Whitetail Country
Re: ID help Wanted - is this a Haenel or a sporter 88 Commission [Re: kuduae]
      #331175 - 15/08/19 12:41 AM

Hello kuduae,

Thank you for the reply.

I'm very pleased with this rifle. I have several others, but this is the only one in 7x57 cal.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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Rothhammer1
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Reged: 06/01/17
Posts: 1826
Loc: The Redwoods of California
Re: ID help Wanted - is this a Haenel or a sporter 88 Commission [Re: 93x64mm]
      #331202 - 15/08/19 10:24 PM

Quote:

Grand piece there Buckstix & in a good calibre too!
I presume you have 'bloc clips' (I hope I used the right term this time)for this old girl to operate?



En bloc :





--------------------
Citizen of the Cherokee Nation

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93x64mm
.416 member


Reged: 07/12/11
Posts: 4199
Loc: Nth QLD Australia
Re: ID help Wanted - is this a Haenel or a sporter 88 Commission [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #331226 - 16/08/19 06:30 AM

Well if I read that article right Rothhammer1, the whole cartridge loading assembly for better words is correctly called a magazine in this case (or en bloc); but just the holder of the cartridges a 'clip' - mixed that up again didn't I!

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Rothhammer1
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Reged: 06/01/17
Posts: 1826
Loc: The Redwoods of California
Re: ID help Wanted - is this a Haenel or a sporter 88 Commission [Re: 93x64mm]
      #331245 - 16/08/19 10:51 PM

Quote:

Well if I read that article right Rothhammer1, the whole cartridge loading assembly for better words is correctly called a magazine in this case (or en bloc); but just the holder of the cartridges a 'clip' - mixed that up again didn't I!



'Discussions' regarding which term is appropriate for certain firearm loading devices and cartridge holders are certainly not new and will surely go on for generations.

Notice the apparent contradictions in this larger detail from the '39 Stoeger:


I assume that by 'clip only' they meant that the price did not include cartridges.

All are listed as "clips" with only the M88's en bloc being also referred to as a "magazine". The Lebel, Mannlicher M95, and M93 are also en bloc.

The M1 Garand used en bloc, and to GI's in the field they were 'clips'. This Stoeger catalog of 1939, however, shows that Yanks were already using the word 'clip' to describe them before WW2.

Folks worldwide have differing opinions regarding what is and is not a 'clip'. Though often and generally referred to as a 'clip' the loading device for the M88 is, by definition, an en bloc. En bloc translates to 'all together' or 'as a unit' which is how they are installed into the firearm to become an integral part of the magazine during use. With the last shot fired, they are ejected. This was the Mannlicher 'packet loading' system. Perhaps a better English language term for en bloc would be 'packets'?

Such operation is rather different from that of a Mauser type 'stripper clip' or 'charger' which is used only to feed a magazine and is not a part of the arm when fired, or of a 'box magazine' as used with Thompson SMG's and the Colt 1911.


Here's a fairly concise explanation (opinion?) -
FirearmsHistory

--------------------
Citizen of the Cherokee Nation

Edited by Rothhammer1 (17/08/19 04:29 PM)

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