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rgp
.333 member


Reged: 17/06/04
Posts: 373
Loc: TX & VIC
dogs and snakebite
      #32929 - 11/06/05 03:58 PM

This will NOT work on most poisonous snakebites on a dog, but this is what I did when the local vet was unavailable.

One of my dogs, a small female, 1/2 mutt, 1/2 Red Heeler, was hit in the nose by a Copperhead (a Texas Copperhead, least poisonous North American "poisonous snake", commonly hits with a dry strike or a low venom level strike as the first warning that you're too close).

Venom injection was minimal, but she swelled almost instantly and as luck would have it, the local vet was no telling where and vaccinating livestock.

There was no bleeding, no thinning of blood, and no necrosis all of which are common with other pit viper bites.

I resorted to the use of allergy medications (one tablet that was Loredane (sp?) and then had to use normal antihistamines). I broke up the capsules and stuck the powder in butter to get her to lick them up.

Now it is 36 hours after the bite and you cannot tell by looking at her that she was ever bitten.

Richard.

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Jake
.224 member


Reged: 24/09/05
Posts: 15
Loc: Boise, Idaho
Re: dogs and snakebite [Re: rgp]
      #52947 - 21/03/06 10:57 PM

Snake bite clinics are done in Boise, Idaho for a nominal sum of $25. In my vet's opinon and mine, this is the best precaution if you're hunting snake country. I've seldom seen rattlesnakes but if I do I'd kill one and bring my dog to smell him and shock him with enough of a jolt to let him know this is something he will never want to smell again. Different snakes smell differently I'm told so you have to use the snake that's the same type your dog wants nothing to do with.

There is a 'newer' serum the vet says that can help your dog if he's bitten but it's not a 100% vaccine and your dog should go immediately to the vet if bitten. Most of the time it's too darn hot for me to hunt chukars when the snakes are about anyway so I've not had a problem.

An ounce of precaution is = to a pound of cure, IMO

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Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3591
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: dogs and snakebite [Re: Jake]
      #53233 - 24/03/06 02:51 PM

There is strong evidence from a large number of Australian cases that a massive injection of vet-grade vitamin C solution will save a dog (...or an Alpaca!) which has been bitten by a venomous snake. I first became aware of this through a 2-page article in the aussie Shooters Journal about 15 - 20 years ago, and it has never been discredited to my knowledge. If I can lay my hands on the article on the weekend I'll toss it up on the web.

An internet search using key-words like "snake bite + dogs + vitamin c" will give opinions on both sides of the topic. The nay-sayers usually suggest that the snake may not have envenomated during the bite, at which point the supporters usually ask "why then was my dog lying on its side, convulsing, and frothing at the mouth?"! Feel free to form your own opinion of course. The bottom line is that in most cases of serious snake-bite, the hunter and his dog are a long way from help and there is nothing to lose by trying the vitamin c injection, if you decide to carry the juice.

We have the world's top 10 most venomous snakes in this country, and 21 out of the top 25 in the world (Reference). Gun-dogs are always at risk, whether pointing, retrieving, or bailing pigs. It's a serious concern.


Begs the question of course, would it work for humans? Any volunteers...?!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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Bakes
.375 member


Reged: 31/01/03
Posts: 589
Loc: QLD
Re: dogs and snakebite [Re: Marrakai]
      #54693 - 13/04/06 11:01 AM

I read the same article Marraki, and made up some kits for our work dogs. Two vets I have spoken to about it said "why not, it wont hurt" plus it gives the handler something to do to get his mind off his dog being bitten. I think the dose is 15ml given under the skin on the neck.

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rgp
.333 member


Reged: 17/06/04
Posts: 373
Loc: TX & VIC
Re: dogs and snakebite [Re: Bakes]
      #54714 - 13/04/06 02:56 PM

This snakebite incident did not occur while hunting, it happened right next to the house.

Is the injectible liquid vitamin C is easily portable or does it have to be kept refrigerated?

The snakebite that my dog Gigi had was from a pit viper and probably nothing like the symptoms of a bite from an Aussie elapid but injecting 15ml of liquid C subcutaneously would be a lot easier than trying to use any oral medications. The reason i resorted to antihistamines is because the bite from a pit viper ordinarily causes immediate extreme swelling, and as this swelling was all in the face, it looked as if it would cut off the dog's ability to breath if the swelling continued.

Also as I later found out, in the USA, for a copperhead or water moccasin, antivenin or serum is normally not required when a dog is bitten. For most rattler bites it is apparently absolutely necessary.

When I directed questions to venom research experts who said everything docs do is wrong, none of the venom experts would say what they do differently themselves when bitten except for an immediate injection of epinepin (spelling?) if starting to go into shock. However a couple of them stated that most dogs are far more likely to recover from an untreated bite than a human being.

Apparently the epinepin is prescription only and a doctor will not give you the prescription without giving you a ton of instructions on when to use it.

Richard

ps, not sure if i spelled the epinepin name properly or if i spelled it phoenetically, but the epinepin is available under the same name in Australia and the USA. I think the people who work with snakes all the time carry a supply of it because they apparently breath in traces of venom at times while working with the snakes, and become progressively more susceptible to serious problems when bitten as compared to those of us who don't work with snakes. Although it seems to me that if they are working with Taipans and similar species there wouldn't be much difference between them being bitten and a regular guy who steps on a Taipan once in his life - rgp

Edited by rgp (13/04/06 03:06 PM)

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bulldog563
.400 member


Reged: 21/10/05
Posts: 1153
Loc: California
Re: dogs and snakebite [Re: rgp]
      #70135 - 25/01/07 06:00 AM

I think you mean epinephrin.

What sort of vitamin C do you inject and where do you get it? Will any liquid formula work?

--------------------
Join the National Rifle Association:
https://membership.nrahq.org/forms/signup.asp

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EricD
.416 member


Reged: 27/02/04
Posts: 4636
Re: dogs and snakebite [Re: bulldog563]
      #70709 - 03/02/07 05:21 AM

Quote:



What sort of vitamin C do you inject and where do you get it? Will any liquid formula work?



I'd be interested to know this too. And if it might work on humans (or at least help more than doing nothing), it could be an interesting item to bring to Africa when planning to be far away from help.

Erik

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Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3591
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: dogs and snakebite [Re: EricD]
      #71213 - 11/02/07 12:10 PM

Well, this is timely! I just came across a photocopy of that article the other day, and put it aside for scanning!

Here you go:


"Dogs, Snakebite and Vitamin C"



Click on the thumbnail to open page. Re-size image using your browser to read.




With apologies to the Australian Shooters Journal!

Edited by NitroX (30/03/07 05:27 AM)

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ALAN_MCKENZIE
.400 member


Reged: 24/03/04
Posts: 1214
Loc: Western Australia
Re: dogs and snakebite [Re: Marrakai]
      #71869 - 19/02/07 12:00 AM

I have had some experience with snake bite on a dog and saved it using the following.

Half a valium tablet to slow dogs pulse down.

1500mg of ASCORBIC ACID INJECTION(500mg in 5 ml's)David Bull Laboratories. May be administered I.M or S.C,

Keep the dog cool and relaxed.

Pat Colby is a goat lady and I believe that is whom I got the info from originally.

Saved my dog,so dont travel anywhere with my dog without my jar of goodies.

Iff it dont save the dog at least it is better than doing nothing !

Al

--------------------
"Dogs always bark at their master"
Sir Seretse Khama.25th June 1949

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Badger_Matt
.224 member


Reged: 29/10/06
Posts: 42
Loc: Simpsonville, SC
Re: dogs and snakebite [Re: ALAN_MCKENZIE]
      #71873 - 19/02/07 02:00 AM

Jake -- I'm a big prevention fan as well. On a Colorado hunt we found a rattlesnake and I shot it out of sight of the dog. I had my dad bring the dog around and as soon as my dog got close to the snake (she was very curious)...I smacked her on the ass with my belt and then hid the belt behind me. When we brought her back near the snake...she gave it a very wide berth.

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Lawman
.275 member


Reged: 04/01/07
Posts: 78
Loc: Texas, USA
Re: dogs and snakebite [Re: Badger_Matt]
      #77945 - 04/05/07 02:05 AM

Rattle snakes are a big problem in South Texas. I think last year was the first time a new vaccine was offered here. It consists of a 2 injection treatment. The 2nd shot administered 30 days after the first. I understand it to be very effective in reducing the effects of a bite. Had my Lab inoculated there were no side effects. Fortunately did not get a chance to test effectiveness.
Most upland hunters here also have dogs "snake broke" using live defanged snakes and shock collars. Here in Houston the
German Shorthair Club puts on an annual Desnaking Clinic"

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Shackleton
.300 member


Reged: 11/08/07
Posts: 203
Loc: Iowa
Re: dogs and snakebite [Re: Lawman]
      #85081 - 04/09/07 12:18 AM

I read something on a venomous snake forum recently that mentioned an actual vaccine*(for immunity not treatment) against snakebite that's being tested. Initial info sounded promising and depending on how tests with animal immunity go they were thinking of taking it further and testing for use in humans as well.

--------------------
"I do not kill with my gun, he who kills with his gun has forgotten the face of his father. I kill with my heart."--Stephen King

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starwars
.275 member


Reged: 03/04/08
Posts: 58
Loc: California
Re: dogs and snakebite [Re: rgp]
      #101371 - 03/04/08 12:44 PM

My good friend lost his puppy out training one day in the fields of California this way, they do make a good serum now that is fairly reasonable.

--------------------
Richard

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Taylor416
.300 member


Reged: 25/11/04
Posts: 161
Loc: Central West, New South Wales....
Re: dogs and snakebite [Re: Marrakai]
      #135353 - 14/05/09 11:59 AM

Chaps,
I did locate this recently, having lost my Jagdterrier to a snake bite eight weeks ago, (still mourning) mind you it's one vets opinion.
cheers
Chris

Vitamin C
In Australia the injection of Vitamin C (10 to 20 mls of 500mg per ml), by intramuscular injection has been used to treat snakebite by owners caught out in the bush. Vitamin C will NOT, according to the latest scientific evidence, inactivate snake venom nor will it reverse the signs of envenomation. Vitamin C is synthesised in adequate amounts by the liver in the healthy dog. It is possible for dogs to have low Vitamin C blood values under certain circumstances. These include, stress, liver disease, pain, lactation or very high levels of activity. It may under these conditions, be beneficial to supplement with Vitamin C.
Vitamin C has several functions in the dog. It is an antioxidant and is required for the synthesis of collagen steroids and carnitine (required for muscle metabolism). Vitamin C also assists in the maintenance of the Immune system and in detoxification of various drugs and toxins by the liver. In a study in 1972, Vitamin C supplementation failed to offer any significant protection against infectious diseases. There may be a small benefit to stressed dogs in supplementing them with vitamin C to enable them to more efficiently use their liver detoxification systems. Just how effective a role high doses of Vitamin C plays in snakebites is unknown. It is certainly less harmful to your dog than cutting down over the bite site or electrocuting your dog, but I would under no circumstances use it as the sole treatment for snakebite. During snake “season” it may be worthwhile giving your dog a Vitamin C tablet daily to keep up their Vitamin C levels.
In conclusion, the best first aid treatment is to keep the animal calm and apply a bandage to the site, if possible, to stop the toxin spreading and then get to a Vet for antivenom and intensive care.

A recent article suggests that your best snake bite kit should contain just 1 thing, a set of car keys!!!!!

Dr Jedwab holds copyright on this article and it must not be reprinted or reproduced without his permission. Dr Jedwab has kindly given permission for the BAOV to place the article on our website.

By Dr. J. Danny Jedwab.
Hampton Veterinary Hospital
Hampton, Melbourne, Vic.
03-95210211

--------------------
Love to hunt!

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9.3x57
.450 member


Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 5521
Loc: United States
Re: dogs and snakebite [Re: Taylor416]
      #135390 - 14/05/09 10:58 PM

Very interesting stuff.

Must have missed this in the past.

We have no venomous snakes here, but did have rattlesnakes west of Spokane Washington where I lived for a time in the early '90's.

We had a Labrador Retriever that was bitten. Trouble was, the dog was roaming about when the strike occured, and didn't get home till he was literally dragging the bitten leg. The leg had swollen up to about the size of my leg and it appeared to be "dead" with no response to stimulus {he couldn't move it} except for pain.

We of course at that time then rushed him to the vet.

The vet examined the dog, verified rattlesnake bite and stated that the anti-venin was useless as the strike was at least 4 hours old {our combined estimate}. His prescription was a high dose of antibiotics. The reason he said, was, that in this case, with antivenin of no assistance, the venom would work its course and the dog either die or survive its direct affect. However, the next problem would be the injury to the tissues by the venom, and the possibility of infection/gangrene later. Thus, Buster got a buttfull of penecillin or some such {I don't recall the exact antibiotic} and he was sent home.

Vet said in a week or so he'll either be dead or he'll start to improve. Saving the leg was another issue.

Well, he did survive. He laid around for a day or so then rose from the grave so-to-speak and dragged the useless club around for another few days and then little-by-little put weight on it and the swelling went down, and in about 2 to 3 weeks was himself again, which is to say, a loveable knothead of a lug with an incredible and brainless hattred of snakes of all sorts. He dug them out and brought them home to chew on. Never got another rattler, but died about a year later of some sort of brain aneurism after being struck by three vehicles and a horse trailer over the course of that year.

I don't know if it matters, but the snakes we had there were small; 2 to 3 feet long at the longest, and a little bigger than my thumb in thickness. We had a jar of rattles in alcohol sitting around, from the one's I shot among the rocks behind the house, but the movers pinched them when we came over here.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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