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NitroXAdministrator
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Honest assessment of the civilian semi auto ...
      #327660 - 25/04/19 01:29 AM

A discussion or debate.

Firearms for self defence in the home or elsewhere, against burglars, I think pretty much is, whatever is close at hand. A shotgun is very effective, quick and doesn't need much aiming. Also devastating at short range. And safer when it comes to others in other rooms. A handgun is good for close quarters. A semi auto, sure, but if it penetrates walls, very dangerous for others. Quick follow up shots are an advantage.

BUT this discussion is more about a discussion more relevant to the US Second Amendment. The US Second Amendment has NOTHING to do with arming oneself against burglars. Or shooting ducks. It is about the right of cilivians to be armed against a hostile or oppressive state, ie one's own government if it starts to act oppressively and illegally hostile to its population. At least that is what many have interpreted it as.

So some of the firearms pof choice include thos available to the US civilian populace. Sporting semi auto firearms, as well as military style semi auto firearms, AR15s, SLRs, SKKs, SKSs, M1 carbines and all sorts of similar firearms.

Now the objective of this discussion is -

If there is ever a hostile and oppressive gov't where a modern military, army, airforce, or military type force is used to subject a civilian population to oppressive actions, how EFFECTIVE are civilians armed with eg AR15's and little else when it comes to modern military gear and military unit equipment and supplies?

The reason I ask this, is many times I have seen these sorts of comments, and when true blue well experienced Aussies soldiers, often still serving or retired in recent years actually comment, they think the civlian armed force against a modern military force is a bit of a joke.

Don't know. Interested in comments. Thanks.

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3DogMike
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Re: Honest assessment of the civilian semi auto ... [Re: NitroX]
      #327662 - 25/04/19 02:08 AM

John,
A very quick and admittedly incomplete response:

“..... and when true blue well experienced Aussies soldiers, often still serving or retired in recent years actually comment, they think the civlian armed force against a modern military force is a bit of a joke. .....”

- The Taliban with AK-47’s and IED’s have kept the pressure on modern “Coalition” and the ANA . Iraq was much the same.


What one would have to keep in mind, at least as far as the USA is concerned, is that there would be no guarantee that the full complement of the US Armed Forces would engage in warfare against US Citizens if ordered to do so.
The Oath of Office for all US military officers “swears or affirms” to uphold the “Constitution of the United States”, this is plainly distinct from required allegiance to an anti-Constitutional government administration that would go to war against its citizen populace.

There plausibly could be the occasion where parts of the US military or States National Guard actually oppose the government ordered use of force against the civilian population. ie: civil war.
.......Add to that the sheer numbers of civilians with prior military training.

- Mike

--------------------
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DarylS
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Re: Honest assessment of the civilian semi auto ... [Re: 3DogMike]
      #327665 - 25/04/19 02:37 AM

Food for thought, indeed.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Honest assessment of the civilian semi auto ... [Re: 3DogMike]
      #327673 - 25/04/19 03:52 AM

Quote:

- The Taliban with AK-47’s and IED’s have kept the pressure on modern “Coalition” and the ANA . Iraq was much the same.



Not a complete response either. But the Afghans when fighting the Soviet invaders did not gain much or have much of a chance until they were supplied with surface to air missiles. By the USA and other Western allies.

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eagle27
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Re: Honest assessment of the civilian semi auto ... [Re: NitroX]
      #327688 - 25/04/19 07:52 AM

I often heard that comment saying armed civilian resistance is no match for a modern military but history and present day events show us it can be very effective. Not everyone in a populace are going to be against the government therefore the military cannot deploy all their ultimate weapons without destroying their own country and loyal citizens.
The modern military might has had no joy in any country where it has been supporting a government and loyal citizens against rebel forces, you can list them one after another where ultimately outside military forces have had to pull out as the cost to man and machine has been too much for little gain.

Countries left to their own devices i.e. civil war, ultimately end up with a government, democratic or dictator, who appeals in popularity to the majority, or come to a deal with the other side and lay down arms.

An outside military force is only successful against a country or state once a declaration of war is made and then all weapons and techniques can be brought to bear against the entire enemy country.

The armed resistance movements usually with minimal training and weaponry in the European countries involved in the second world war were very effective against probably the most well armed, trained, prepared and determined enemy. Disrupting military supply lines, intelligence, etc., is very effective against any military. Of course nowadays there are enough civilians around that can construct weapons up to and including nuclear devices if they want to.

In regards effectiveness of military, I always remember an area we use to hunt deer in up one of the big rivers in the Canterbury high country. We used to trail bike in, had a hideaway bivvy built with access through swamp and tucked in under a terrace in scrub country. We would evening shoot and then spotlight all night in the National Park. One trip we came across an army unit undertaking exercises in the area and camped right next to our bivvy access way. We did a roundabout route to the bivvy, set up then headed out for the evening and night. Got a few deer and ran into the army boys on the way back to camp. They were bemoaning the fact they had tried to get a deer (ambushing in their words) but just couldn't get on to any. Couldn't figure out where we were camped and how we moved around without them seeing us. As armed civilians we could have wrecked some havoc if so disposed.

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szihn
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Re: Honest assessment of the civilian semi auto ... [Re: eagle27]
      #327693 - 25/04/19 09:44 AM

The power of the armed population is in numbers and mindset.
I just looked up the total sales of hunting licenses in one state of the USA, Pennsylvania, for the year 2016. Please note, this is just a reflection of those that go hunting, not every one that shoots or owns guns. Some say there are about 3X more shooters then hunters.


That number in one of the 50 states is 914,323

9/10s of a million hunters in one state. There are 49 more. Consider how many people own a handgun or a shot gun or as you focus on....an AR or an AK who never use it to hunt with.

So we talk about the "might" of the military.

The whole of the USA armed forces including all 4 services, Army, Navy, Marine Corps, and Air Force as of this year is 3,487,747.
So the hunters (not all the shooters) in Pennsylvania alone are 1/4 the size of ALL the US military troops in the USA and ALL of them deployed around the world and All of them in the active reserves and ALL of then in the inactive reserves.

If the guess above is correct and the gun owners outnumber the hunters in the state of Pennsylvania (and all others too) that number in PA would go to 2,742,969 which is 72% of the total number of personnel of ALL us armed forces. And as I said, there are 49 other states too.

Now is it reasonable to believe all of the gun owners would fight?
No!

But by the same logic, is it reasonable to think ALL of the personal of the US Armed forces would obey orders to commit High Treason against their own people?
Also No!

Keep in mind that only about 15% of all US personal have anything to do with weapons at all. The other 85% are non-combative roles. So from the number of 3,487,747 we should deduct 85% and that would leave 523,162 which is about 65% of Pennsylvania's hunters.

(Did I mention the other 49 states, and all the people who own guns but don't hunt?)

If an evil politician ordered the US Armed Forces to go to war against the US population and if ALL of the US Military personal were treasonous enough to do it, Pennsylvania alone would outnumber them by a large margin. And ALL of them have homes and live here, so it is possible they would incur the wrath of more then a few angry American citizens, some of whom know where ALL of them live, and many of whom own the farms and ranches and factories that produce the food and send the water and clothing to the military bases, not to mention medicines, tools, fuel, parts, and so on.

So it's a numbers game, and if Americans got it in their mind that the "tools" of the government are their enemies, how long would you guess all the technical weapons would last on those bases?

Sure they have choppers and tanks. But a fence and a few guards would not keep several millions angry Americans out very long, and nothing stops a tank or helicopter better then dead crews. If a military base was over run there is NO place to pull back to. Not only are they severely outnumbered, but they are also 100% surrounded and cut off from their food, water, power, tools, clothing and everything else.

The same it true even more-so for evil politicians and corrupt cops.

They have homes too. And millions of American know where they live.

Mindset is key.

As long as any population thinks their government can defeat them they will cower and give up without a fight.

But let that mindset change ----for only one day---- and if those 163,000,000 Angry Americans go to war with the 500,000 that declared war on them, and that war would be over (do to lack of enemies left to kill) in about 4 days. The traitors are outnumbered only about 330 to one, and the traitors have no place to pull back to that can be defended ,and have no control of their food, water or power.

How strong are these politicians really?

As strong as the cowardice of the people they fool.

Edited by szihn (25/04/19 10:13 AM)

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skybolt
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Re: Honest assessment of the civilian semi auto ... [Re: szihn]
      #327694 - 25/04/19 11:37 AM

There were 36 million hunting licenses sold in the US in 2017. If you figure that there is at least one shooter for each hunter, that comes out to 72 million potential militia members.

Now maybe 10% of these might actually be willing to get actively involved....but that still leaves a 7.2 million man civilian army, each with a family to provide material support. This is a fairly significant number to deal with.

Therevwould be an unknown number of civilians who would want to get involved but have no weapon. These could be easily equipped by the active shooters/hunters each of whom usually owns several different weapons and spare ammo.

Then if you add to that number that probably 50% of the active military would support the civilians either actively or secretly.
Interesting.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Honest assessment of the civilian semi auto ... [Re: skybolt]
      #327701 - 25/04/19 07:46 PM

Firstly I tend to disagree with the comments by the servicemen/ex-servicemen that say armed civilians in the West would be a joke against modern military units.

But I also agree somewhat. I am not military trained or experienced. Don't pretend to be any sort of TV armchair expert.

First it is complete rubbish to say all countries ultimately are ruled by the majority. The world and history proves exactly the opposite.

It is also rubbish to say a determined force or rebels always wins in the long run.

I would argue that first they only win when it is an invading force, which can go elsewhere. Home grown dictators and their minions can't go "back home with their tails between their legs".

Secondly hoime grown disorganised chaotic rebels by themselves rarely achieve anything but chaos. Unless they are backed by substantial resources, usually a foreign power. Over many many years sometimes, but as soon as the foreign power stops support, they disappear or give up.

Examples are the IRA in Ireland. Supported by the Soviet Union. When the Iron Curtain fell, the agreed to peace soon after. I wonder who is supporting and funding the new troubles there with the "New IRA" since the Brexit vote?

Another example is the Basque mov't. Again supported by the Soviet Union.

Another example of course if the Palestinians. A mixture of different scenarios there.

Armed guerillas did not win in Rhodesia. Foreign sanctions eventually forced change there.

Armed guerillas did not change South Africa. Political action and sanctions did.

Armed guerillas did not win in Vietnam. North Vietnamese army was ALWAYS behind the Viet Cong. The Viet Cong largely was imaginery and always North soldiers.

Guerillas did not win in Angola. They lost.

Interestingly guerillas did win in Malawi. I wonder who was supporting them? The USA covertly? The French supported the genocidial Malawui gov't.

The French Resistance. Caused some havoc. In no way would have "won the war" in France. The D-Day Invasion changed the tide. As everyone knows.

Resistance in the Low Countries, would not have won.

Partisans in Eastern Europe achieved some results. But did not "win". The invading Red Army was the deciding factor.

AND ALL of these resistance groups had foreign support, arm supplies, training facilities, either by the British and Americans in the West or the Russians and Allies in the East. And in modern times, the Afghans by the USA, all the marxist revolutionaries by the Soviet Union.

Something controversial. ISIS guerillas were supported by Saudis and probably the CIA.

Rsistance movements rarely win unless supported by foreign powers, with arms and money, or at least by very rich supporters. And still usually a foreign powers direct intervention militarily or economically is also needed to "win".

***

Hunters being better than soldiers?

No kidding. Often the case except for some soldiers.

War isn't about one on one. They don't fight with swords on horseback now. It is about logictics, units, groups and strategy.

For example, guerillas can damage a police station. Police can raid their houses at 4am and arrest them one by one.

Guerillas can hide in a friendly population.

I wonder how electronic surveillance would change this in the modern world. Tap into phones, your smart mobile phone, google home devices, your laptops camera and microphone, your smart TV ... there was a reason Osama Bin Ladin hid in caves or allegedly disconnect houses with any human intermediaries.

I wonder how effective hiding in the bush and mountains is nowadays? No Himalayas or Hindu Kush to hide in. Satellites, aircraft, drones, all make a difference now.

A mention earlier, authorities couldn't use a lot of larger weapons because of harming non combatants? Dictators often have no concerns like this. And the rebels often hope for large civilian deaths as this motivates the middle people to get angry.

Electronic surveillance and noght vision. One of the advantages troops had in Iraq and the Middle East was electronic surveillance and night vision. The jihardis did not. Were at a massive disadvantage at night.

Does every AR15 freedom fight also have night vision goggles?

Massive air power wins wars when backed up by ground forces.

Artillery was the winning strategic factor before airpower existed.

***

NOW I would bloody well hope that the US military would NOT support such a dictator. At least not a left wing dictator. Even given the attempts to undermine the military in a lot of our countries with gender identity politics and rot.

Almost all the military people I know, tend to be of a certain character. Law abiding, but also with a certain amount of independence and free spirit. Police on the other hand can be very different.

***

How does a coup happen?

Traditionally was the seizing of the Town Hall, Parliament, Presidencial Palace, the TV station, the radio station, the Police HQ, military bases not part of the coup.

Nowadays they can probably turn off the internet ... ? ... seeing how it happened in Sri Lanka and NZ.

But I really dounbt some sort of sudden tanks in the street sort of thing. More like the current "death by a thousand cuts". Democracy ends not with a bang, it ends with a whimper. And history shows, an emergency is engineered, and then an emergency response is called for, and draconian controls are required ...

***

There is a very real reason why the anti gunners want to remove lots of firearms and certain types of firearms from the hand of American civilians. Because millions of firearms in millions of civilians hands are an impediment.

Even if laws came in today, how on Earth would that change anything. Registration AFTER the acquisition does not necessarily lead to future successful confiscation.

***

But when it comes to the question of the Red or Blue Pill, I do feel most people will almost certainly choose the Blue Pill.

--------------------
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...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Honest assessment of the civilian semi auto ... [Re: eagle27]
      #327704 - 25/04/19 08:12 PM

Quote:


In regards effectiveness of military, I always remember an area we use to hunt deer in up one of the big rivers in the Canterbury high country. We used to trail bike in, had a hideaway bivvy built with access through swamp and tucked in under a terrace in scrub country. We would evening shoot and then spotlight all night in the National Park. One trip we came across an army unit undertaking exercises in the area and camped right next to our bivvy access way. We did a roundabout route to the bivvy, set up then headed out for the evening and night. Got a few deer and ran into the army boys on the way back to camp. They were bemoaning the fact they had tried to get a deer (ambushing in their words) but just couldn't get on to any. Couldn't figure out where we were camped and how we moved around without them seeing us. As armed civilians we could have wrecked some havoc if so disposed.



From my hunting with a couple of army mates decades ago, I came to believe most military procedures are designed for the most stupid and incapable member of the unit to cope with.

At least for the ordinary soldier and unit.

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John aka NitroX

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Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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Ripp
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Re: Honest assessment of the civilian semi auto ... [Re: 3DogMike]
      #327714 - 26/04/19 12:19 AM

Quote:

John,
A very quick and admittedly incomplete response:

“..... and when true blue well experienced Aussies soldiers, often still serving or retired in recent years actually comment, they think the civlian armed force against a modern military force is a bit of a joke. .....”

- The Taliban with AK-47’s and IED’s have kept the pressure on modern “Coalition” and the ANA . Iraq was much the same.


What one would have to keep in mind, at least as far as the USA is concerned, is that there would be no guarantee that the full complement of the US Armed Forces would engage in warfare against US Citizens if ordered to do so.
The Oath of Office for all US military officers “swears or affirms” to uphold the “Constitution of the United States”, this is plainly distinct from required allegiance to an anti-Constitutional government administration that would go to war against its citizen populace.

There plausibly could be the occasion where parts of the US military or States National Guard actually oppose the government ordered use of force against the civilian population. ie: civil war.
.......Add to that the sheer numbers of civilians with prior military training.

- Mike



I agree a LOT with this assessment.. throughout the year I have the privilege of talking, training, etc with numerous retired special forces individuals.. based on what I hear, see, etc, there is NO way they would bring arms against their fellow citizens..Oh, I am sure, there would be some in the services that would..but feel the vast majority would not..

Then as mentioned in other posts, the sheer volume of firepower in this country is astounding...millions and millions of firearms... the amount of ammo shot yearly in this country is also a huge number.. 3 gun shoots in most states every weekend.. along with now the ever popular long range competitions..not counting all the other shooting disciplines done daily, weekly, monthly..there programs/competitions have created some very,very well trained shooting groups throughout the US..

Economically, if they start killing off the tax payers, who is going to supply them with all the funds the liberals need to give free shit away??

Personally, I am not buying into the notion this will/could happen anytime soon... a more pressing issue in this nation is the wackos on the left, liberalism, etc... severe cultural divide ..that currently has a much more probability of happening and causing civil disturbance.. which is a very good reason to keep buying ammo.. reloading..etc... if shit were to hit the fan in this country, personally I don't think the lib's will fair so well..but, that is a decision they will have to make ..

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Ripp
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Re: Honest assessment of the civilian semi auto ... [Re: Ripp]
      #327717 - 26/04/19 01:27 AM

Ironically this was a post on an email I got this morning.. whether factual or not, it does bring up some good points..


Is it true that Rep. Eric Swalwell said the government has weapons that could be used against Second Amendment supporters who refuse to give up their firearms?

https://www.bizpacreview.com/2018/11/17/...esisters-694471


Austin Lewis, Owned a share in a gun store, shooting for twenty years and change
Answered Nov 17

Rep Eric Swalwell, a democrat congressman from California, said something fairly similar.

He basically responded to someone pointing out the purpose of the Second Amendment was armed revolution by saying that the United States government has ‘legit nukes.’

Which is so militarily ignorant that it beggars belief.

First off, there’s not a lot of support for using the nuke again ever. America remains the only place to have ever dropped one, which, though successful in the end it was meant to reach, is still not the best thing in the world to be famous for.

Secondly, all that high tech military hardware doesn’t do much good in the cities.

Sure, you can kill Branch Davidians and strange people at Ruby Ridge indiscriminately. Hell, you could airstrike them.

But what happens when that person you’re fighting is in a city, surrounded by noncombatants? Gonna airstrike a city block? Gonna send in tanks?

Anyone with half a brain would tell you that this creates more rebellion than it quashes.

Of course, Eric Swalwell has never done anything with the military. In fact, the man has barely held a job that had qualifications other than ‘win an election.’ It’s likely that Swalwell thought he was being pithy and bright, instead of a massive moron who kind of tipped the point that he’s willing to use violence to take guns from law abiding citizens.

A barely-literate force of half-starved tiny asian men frustrated the most powerful military on Earth in the jungles of Vietnam.

A barely-literate force of half-starved men in robes have frustrated the most powerful militaries on Earth in Afghanistan and Iraq.

Anyone who thinks that an insurgent force can not carry on a fight, like the ‘economics professor’ below, has obviously not had much life experience.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Honest assessment of the civilian semi auto ... [Re: Ripp]
      #327725 - 26/04/19 03:34 AM

Quote:



A barely-literate force of half-starved tiny asian men frustrated the most powerful military on Earth in the jungles of Vietnam.

A barely-literate force of half-starved men in robes have frustrated the most powerful militaries on Earth in Afghanistan and Iraq.

Anyone who thinks that an insurgent force can not carry on a fight, like the ‘economics professor’ below, has obviously not had much life experience.




The USA won the Vietnam War. Its people gave up the fight after the Tet Offensive was defeated. Militarily the Voetnamese forces in the South were largely finished. The US media and its liberals lost the will to finish. And as everyone here should know. If you leave the initiative to the enemy allowing them to strike where they want, you will always be on the defensive. A country called North Vietnam was supporting and supplying these so called "insurgents". Research the topic of the "Viet Cong". Long since it has been revealed the North's strategy was to insert a Division of troops into an area of the South. Setup a base of operations. Crush any dissent. And launch "guerilla" operations against the enemy. The Viet Cong are largely a mith as "home grown insurgents".

Was the USA defeated in Afghanistan or Iraq? Seems there was and is continuing to be a regime change. What were the objectives of the military action? Were they confused objectives or changed objectives over time? Infidels in Muslim lands seems to be a powerful motivator as time went by.

These insurgents, especially in early days were well funded. By who? Same as funds them still today. The Middle East is a mess.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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