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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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JudgeG
.224 member


Reged: 10/01/03
Posts: 39
Loc: Georgia Coast
Re: New to forum and relatively new to doubles- Fe [Re: butchsearcy]
      #32776 - 08/06/05 12:18 PM

I can speak to both Butch and 400Nitro's posts, having a Searcy PH in .470 and a Westley Richards in .450/.400 3 1/4". That and being friends of the gentlemen?? At least until they read my post!

I love them both.. the rifles and the guys...

While I'm at it, let me report that I've got a deposit on a H&H 8x57 and am in the process of selling a kidney for the rest of the price.

I wonder if I'll like the little sidelock? .... When visiting the owner, it came to shoulder like a focused cobra... and that was really cool.

One thing I do know is that Mr. Searcy is still around and I doubt I can find Mr. Holland or Mr. Richards. That makes the Searcy quite attractive to me.... that and the fact that I can beat Butch's tiny little ass if he doesn't fix my rifle (in the event it ever fails).. makes my money well spent, IMHO... Seriously, I find my Searcy to point wonderfully for me... it should.. it was built to my specifications.. something that doesn't happen on a hundred year old gun.. and Butch, if you buy me about 10 magaritas at the Mexican place... maybe, just maybe, your sorry Navy butt could beat this old Marine... but I doubt it.

.400NitroExpress is a English rifle prude.. and this weekend he's going to an English double rifle Nirvana... can't wait to hear him salivate all the way from Virginia. Take a look at the H&H for me, Marc!


--------------------
JudgeG
Old and getting older, I hope. But once I was young.

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4seventy
Sponsor


Reged: 07/05/03
Posts: 2210
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Re: New to forum and relatively new to doubles- Fe [Re: new_guy]
      #32790 - 08/06/05 03:45 PM

In reply to:

Regardless of who won a free gun



Interesting.
Somewhat irrelevant, but, interesting.

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iwantadouble
.300 member


Reged: 06/06/05
Posts: 104
Loc: Gallatin County, Montana
Re: New to forum and relatively new to doubles- Fe [Re: JudgeG]
      #32793 - 08/06/05 06:44 PM

I don't think that you need a new gun to have a gun that fits perfectly. In fact I know better, even with my limited knowledge on the subject. When I went into Westley Richards and looked around, the little Francotte I was handed was near impossible to NOT sight dead on when brought to my shoulder. I had to uncomfortably place myself into a position that nobody would ever shoot from to get out of sight alignment. It was extremely hard to do. Not bad for a rifle that was made in the 1930's, five decades before I was produced. Of course, its a rarity to find something like that, and that makes it even more cherrished (in my opinion) than a gun that one just ordered brand new.

I've also heard the steel arguement brought up (not limiting to just doubles but all firearms) many times in the past. I'm not buying into it. That is, when the firearm is shooting the loadings that fit into the pressure ranges of those it was intended for. Irregardless of the metalurgical improvements, anything overcharged will fail. What it boils down to is resisting the hot rodding urge to try for .22 caliber velocities from a .400-.600 caliber bullet. And on a double, I would be more than content to stay within, or to a certain point, slightly below the accepted charges. (Then again, I am not hunting Africa or India. At that point I would take a new gun that I would not care about getting lost, abused, or what not. The thought of losing or damaging a pristine example of a fine gun made in a time that has long since vanished in all forms save for romantic tales of man versus beast would be reprehensible.)

--------------------
500 is a nice round number, either followed by "Nitro Express" or by "cubic inch displacement".

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Rusty
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Posts: 464
Loc: Missouri City, Texas
Re: New to forum and relatively new to doubles- Fe [Re: iwantadouble]
      #32797 - 08/06/05 11:08 PM

I am attracted to English double rifles. They do have a certain grace and functionality that appeals to me.
I own a circa 1910 A. Hollis and Son, 450/400 3 inch. It is a wonderful rifle. I have this thing about 26 inch barrels.

If I were to buy a NIB 450/400 3 inch .408 caliber 26 inch barreled double rifle today, it would be a Searcy. On the two occasions I have had an opportunity to visit with and to talk with Butch, he has treated me with kindness and took time to chat with me even though he knew I wasn't going to buy a rifle from him at that time.

When I do buy a rifle from Butch it will have an English style splinter forearm and cheek piece stock.

I think Butch makes the best American made double rifle.
According to reports I've heard, about the number of orders he got at Reno this year, a bunch of folks feel the same way.

If faced with a choice of a used Searcy and an old English double, I'd most likely choose the English rifle.
Just my opine


--------------------
Rusty
We band of brothers!
DRSS

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Doc52
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Reged: 10/01/05
Posts: 24
Loc: Bucks County, Penna. USA
Re: New to forum and relatively new to doubles- Fe [Re: Rusty]
      #32827 - 09/06/05 01:23 PM

Having been a machinist for over 14yrs, I have a certain appreciation for the time and skill involved in forming steel and wood into a fine DR. Like most, I have been raised on the hollywood movies, and novels concerning Big Game Hunting in Africa. Having handled alot of firearms in my 52yrs. my first purchase of a DR was a Merkel 500NE for my Som who you know as Clark7781. I had the rare oppurtunity to have an in with a collector who was in the processes of liquidating his collection. Upon further examination, the Westley Richards 500NE had pitting in the bore,and I ended up passing on that fine firearm. So, back to square one! Having checked out my options, and having seen some of Butch's DR's, I decided that I wanted a unique DR in 577NE,to be the culmination of my idea of a DG rifle, with all the bells and whistles, something to be used and to be handed down to my decendents. I had my son put my order in on line with Butch, then I flew to Boron Ca. to meet with Butch. I can't begin to tell you what a wonderful experience I had meeting with Butch! He is one in a million! For those of you, who are looking for thier first DR and want new, I highly recommend that you check out Butch Searcy!
Well thats my two cents
Doc52
Peace, through Superior Firepower!

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rgp
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Posts: 373
Loc: TX & VIC
Re: New to forum and relatively new to doubles- Fe [Re: Doc52]
      #32831 - 09/06/05 04:44 PM

I'm still saving my pennies for a double and am leaning toward a Searcy even though I haven't seen one yet, for the following reasons, in no particular order:

1) Searcy makes a rifle that is intended to be a tool rather than a "work of art". The only work of art on any double is the picture scratched into the metal and referred to as engraving;

2) Everything I've read indicates a lifetime no questions asked warranty on Searcy doubles, and other doubles purchased new at any price apparently do not have such a warranty;

3) For far less than the cost of a used mint condition English gun, Searcy will make a double rifle that is built to fit the buyer;

4) PAC NOR barrels. Bead blasted or blackened stainless steel PAC NOR barrels would be even better;

5) Most parts on the Searcy rifles with the exception of the barrels, sights, and sling swivels, appear to be made of stainless steel;

6) No snooty considerations of "art" or "investment" or any similar BS if buying a Searcy. The "investment" argument is bizarre considering most who mention "English double as an investment" intend to buy it and keep it and play with it until they die, which is a bit different from a real investment, which will be sold as soon as the desired profit margin is attainable. The "investment" argument may work on a blonde wife but you shouldn't confuse a hobby with an investment.

Richard/El Pragmático

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iwantadouble
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Posts: 104
Loc: Gallatin County, Montana
Re: New to forum and relatively new to doubles- Fe [Re: rgp]
      #32842 - 10/06/05 01:50 AM

I don't approach investments in that manner. I have a hard time selling items that I am attatched to, but fianancial diffulties fall on all of us from time to time. I've sold a lot of coins that I hated to let go of to pay rent and keep food on my table in the past. A double would be treated with the same regard. I would enjoy it for everything it is worth, hoping that I would never have to sell it, but being that it would have no family sentiment behind it, sold at the first absolute need. With luck, if I have children, it would become theirs as a rememberance that dad was that twisted individual that went target practicing with a .500 Nitro. After death, and provided I ever do have children, I won't care if its sold or not, but its a refreshing thought that at that point they would not look at it as an investment and hang on to it for sentimental reasons.

Art is subjective. A condition exits in humanity that produces minimalists. I am a minimalist. I find beauty in simplicity, and over embelishment of anything as just gaudy.

--------------------
500 is a nice round number, either followed by "Nitro Express" or by "cubic inch displacement".

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bonanza
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Posts: 2335
Loc: South Carolina
Re: New to forum and relatively new to doubles- Fe [Re: rgp]
      #32844 - 10/06/05 02:09 AM

RQP,

The "art" in an English Best is the hand crafting of the components and the hand fitting. My merkel is a great rifle, but can't compare to a English Best in fit and finish. The sweetest rifle I have ever felt was a Webely 450/400 at about nine pounds. I pointed like a 410 side by side but weighed allmost twice as much. That is "art" to me.

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"

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rgp
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Posts: 373
Loc: TX & VIC
Re: New to forum and relatively new to doubles- Fe [Re: iwantadouble]
      #32862 - 10/06/05 01:05 PM

iwantadouble,

The occasional financial problems do happen of course (I've had those problems myself a few times), but given the narrow target market that actually purchases double rifles, it seems as though one put up for sale could be on the market for months before being sold, much the same as when selling a house or a farm.

bonanza,

The few best grade English guns I've seen technically do qualify as art. Admittedly most of the English guns I've seen have been shotguns, but the first English gun I ever saw in person (not including military surplus Brit guns) was a bolt action Rigby .416 (I don't think it was was a "Best" grade). It was a steal at $5,500 in mint condition and I'm still kicking myself for not buying it.

I apologize for being harsh about the artistic aspect, but given the intended use, it needs to be a brute strong tool first and foremost, and all other things are secondary.

Richard.

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mickey
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Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
Re: New to forum and relatively new to doubles- Fe [Re: rgp]
      #32867 - 10/06/05 03:04 PM

rqp

I think you are half right. The rifles I have sold either go in the first week or don't go at all. I usually pull a rifle after a couple of weeks and try again later.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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500grains
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Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Re: New to forum and relatively new to doubles- Fe [Re: mickey]
      #32888 - 11/06/05 01:17 AM

If you want a shooter, better to get a new rifle.

If you want a vintage gun, and are prepared for the potential problems that may be associated with it and the costs of addressing those problems, there are a lot of interesting old English guns to be found. But be prepared to pay the price to correct anything which may be wrong with them. And be prepared for the unexpected, such as the H&H which blew out a chunk of its barrel. Seems there are quite a few vintage H&H that have done that, and no one seems to know why, and there does not seem to be a way to predict/avoid it.

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clark7781
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Re: New to forum and relatively new to doubles- Fe [Re: 500grains]
      #32890 - 11/06/05 01:59 AM

In reply to:

And be prepared for the unexpected, such as the H&H which blew out a chunk of its barrel. Seems there are quite a few vintage H&H that have done that, and no one seems to know why, and there does not seem to be a way to predict/avoid it.



Spoke with Fred (CFA) at the DRSS hunt in April (it was his gun). The only good thing about it was George was a stand-up guy and refunded Fred's money. Now Fred is in the market for another one--and I think he's looking for another Holland and Holland.

--------------------
Clark

Double Rifle Shooters Society
.500 NE and .577 NE

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jjs
.224 member


Reged: 08/03/05
Posts: 18
Re: New to forum and relatively new to doubles- Fe [Re: clark7781]
      #32892 - 11/06/05 02:20 AM

I was wondering are vintage Double Rifles sold with a "Disclaimer", if not I guess one would assume they are fit for the use intended. If no disclaimer and given the circumstances (CFA's Gun), I would imagine the Seller was somewhat obligated to refund the monies... and most likely thankful no one was injured as they may have been liable for that as well...Thankfully no one was injured!!!!

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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: New to forum and relatively new to doubles- Fe [Re: jjs]
      #32895 - 11/06/05 02:32 AM


jjs,

I think you are now getting into the realm of outer space.

CFA's Gun, the Holland just happened to strike a good dealer in George.

No one can sell an old gun with a disclaimer past the US 3 day sale or return.
Once you have bought it, it's yours.

As much as I get all my guns taken to a good gunsmith and given the once over
treatment and everythng done to it if needed, you can't put a warranty on a gun
100 years old.

500 Nitro

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rgp
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Posts: 373
Loc: TX & VIC
Re: New to forum and relatively new to doubles- Fe [Re: 500Nitro]
      #32914 - 11/06/05 01:20 PM

500Nitro,

Disclaimers are sometimes seen on antique guns in the USA however the typical disclaimer is tagged onto a firearm that should not be fired for safety reasons.

A current example of this is the 1871 Mauser rifles being sold by one company, they are probably strong enough for use but they are advertised as being for display purposes only and "seller not liable for damages or injuries" if the buyer decides to shoot it.

Richard.

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new_guy
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Re: New to forum and relatively new to doubles- Fe [Re: jjs]
      #32919 - 11/06/05 02:33 PM

In reply to:

I was wondering are vintage Double Rifles sold with a "Disclaimer", if not I guess one would assume they are fit for the use intended. If no disclaimer and given the circumstances (CFA's Gun), I would imagine the Seller was somewhat obligated to refund the monies... and most likely thankful no one was injured as they may have been liable for that as well...Thankfully no one was injured!!!!



These vintage guns (as are most used guns) are sold "As Is" and as collectible pieces only... no warranty expressed or implied. IMO, George went above and beyond the call of duty... as few dealers would offer any sort of refund on a 50-75 year old gun blown up with any sort of non-factory ammo. Negligence is another issue entirely, but used guns are sold like used cars.

--------------------
www.heymUSA.com

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500grains
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Reged: 16/02/04
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Re: New to forum and relatively new to doubles- Fe [Re: new_guy]
      #32922 - 11/06/05 02:53 PM

In reply to:

The only good thing about it was George was a stand-up guy and refunded Fred's money. Now Fred is in the market for another one--and I think he's looking for another Holland and Holland.




I am very glad Fred came out of that one without having to eat a $30K loss. It would be difficult for any dealer, even Mr. Caswell, to eat many such losses.

Also, as I understand it there was absolutely nothing suspect about the ammo, and it appears the barrel steel was just weak.

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iwantadouble
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Reged: 06/06/05
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Loc: Gallatin County, Montana
Re: New to forum and relatively new to doubles- Fe [Re: new_guy]
      #32934 - 11/06/05 10:59 PM

I could handle fixing an antique car, but I would not even attempt to do any work on a firearm. I guess it all depends on what trade you go into, though. Probably a lot of gunsmiths that would be left baffled when dealing with automotive restoration.

It is nice to know that nobody was injured during the barrel busting and that there are good dealers that will work with the customer after such an incident.

--------------------
500 is a nice round number, either followed by "Nitro Express" or by "cubic inch displacement".

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jjs
.224 member


Reged: 08/03/05
Posts: 18
Re: New to forum and relatively new to doubles- Fe [Re: 500Nitro]
      #32944 - 12/06/05 05:53 AM

500Nitro:

Not just yet "into the realm of outer space" but possibly I am heading that way...

I not sure any of us who replied and probably only CFA truely knows, what or if any representations or warrenties were made with the purchase of that particular DR. Possibly it was "As Is" but I have seen vintage DR noted as to the state of their "wear and tear" ie 80%,90%, +++, mint bores, etc., fine working gun, functions, etc...so there are at least some representations made as to the "state of the gun" in many cases.

I would hope any reputable Dealer would stand behing a product given some stated level of condition before purchase. I do not think anyone could expect a very long warrenty, in the case of a 100 year old vintage DR, but I would not purchase one without some warrenty and then only from a Dealer who stands behind what he says. If a gun blew part of the barrel, after only a few shots, and there was either an express or implied warrenty then the Dealer should at least refund the monies and be thankful no one was injured. The Dealer or Seller may not be negligent but they could surely be liable for such injuries.

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4seventy
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Re: New to forum and relatively new to doubles- Fe [Re: 500grains]
      #33005 - 13/06/05 05:42 PM

In reply to:

Also, as I understand it there was absolutely nothing suspect about the ammo, and it appears the barrel steel was just weak.



Ok, is this a result of tests carried out on the barrels and loads, or just speculation?

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clark7781
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Reged: 28/10/04
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Re: New to forum and relatively new to doubles- Fe [Re: 4seventy]
      #33015 - 13/06/05 11:30 PM

In reply to:

Ok, is this a result of tests carried out on the barrels and loads, or just speculation?



How I understand it from chatting with Tony (NE450No2) and Fred (CFA) at the DRSS hunt this past April, Tony had the Holland from Fred and was giving it a once over and test firing it with standard reloaded ammo (NOT hot loads).

The barrel blew after only a few rounds went through the pipe.

This is how I remember the conversation about the rifle, but if CFA or NE450No2 remembers it differently, take their word as law.



--------------------
Clark

Double Rifle Shooters Society
.500 NE and .577 NE

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mickey
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Re: New to forum and relatively new to doubles- Fe [Re: 4seventy]
      #33030 - 14/06/05 08:02 AM

In reply to:

Poster: 4seventy
Subject: Re: New to forum and relatively new to doubles- Fe


In reply to:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Also, as I understand it there was absolutely nothing suspect about the ammo, and it appears the barrel steel was just weak.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Ok, is this a result of tests carried out on the barrels and loads, or just speculation?




I'm curious also. Has the testing been complete? There seems to be a few R 15 accidents lately.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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500grains
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Reged: 16/02/04
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Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Re: New to forum and relatively new to doubles- Fe [Re: mickey]
      #33495 - 21/06/05 07:21 AM

In reply to:

Ok, is this a result of tests carried out on the barrels and loads, or just speculation?



The load as I understand it is pretty much standard stuff - Woodleigh bullet, Reloader 15.

Perhaps the Woodleigh bullet caused the barrel damage.

Or perhaps Reloader 15 did.

But there are lots of rifles not suffering apparent damage with Reloader 15 and Woodleigh bullets.

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