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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Mauser Discussion Forum

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Huvius
.416 member

Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 3556
Loc: Colorado

An Interesting Oberndorf 280 Ross
#319340 - 26/08/18 09:36 AM

I just recently bought this Mauser 280, more or less just for the heck of it as I still have the dies, brass and some bullets from when I sold my Gibbs magnum.
The numbers all check out.
It has been restocked but to a decent standard of not to original specs. Good feeling rifle though and a good looking piece of wood.

Here’s where it gets interesting.
The stamps all point to being a Mauser retailed rifle rather than an English rifle. No British proofs at all.
Speeds book says that the Mauser 280s were all built on magnum length actions yet this one is on a standard action.
The magazine is made to the correct 280 dimensions which is in fact the longest magazine Mauser offered other than the 416 Rigby and quite tapered from back to front, more so than any other Oberndorf Mauser magazine.

Now, I have a supply of original Kynoch 280 ammunition with 260gr bullets but they won’t fit down the magazine.
They will single load in the chamber as will my reloads.
I was pretty perturbed at this until I read that the original Ross cartridges used a 140gr which seat into the case enough to fit down the mag. This being a pretty early rifle would probably have been built to take these lighter bullets and shorter OAL of that original loading.
It has a long what I would call a heavy sporter profile to the barrel.

Now here’s where I can use some sage advice.
My barrel measures out at a .276” bore.
That makes me think that the projectile should be something smaller than the usual .287” that the Ross is supposed to use.
I think that a .284” bullet as used in the many American 280s may be the right size. I know my Gibbs was tight bored too and had high pressure signs with the same loads that shot just fine in a Charles Lancaster rifle we have.
What do you all think?
Should I try .284s or stick with .287s since they do chamber?

Here are some pictures of the rifle.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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Rule303
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Reged: 05/07/09
Posts: 5061
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Re: An Interesting Oberndorf 280 Ross [Re: Huvius]
#319343 - 26/08/18 10:50 AM

Huvius I can't advise on the projectiles however that is one sweet looking rifle.

Will the magazine box in this rifle take a 404J or 375H&H length round? I just find it strange that they made a 280Ross and did not open the magazine up to properly accommodate what I think was the norm foe 7mm at the time,160 grain bullets Though as you said the Ross normally ran 140grain bullets but I would have thought that was the military load.

I stand to be corrected on what I have written.

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Vladymere
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Re: An Interesting Oberndorf 280 Ross [Re: Rule303]
#319346 - 26/08/18 11:41 AM

Midway USA has a large variety of .277" diameter bullets. Perhaps some of this would be best suited for reloading?

Beautiful rifle by the way.

Vlad

Edited by Vladymere (26/08/18 11:42 AM)

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93x64mm
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Reged: 07/12/11
Posts: 4199
Loc: Nth QLD Australia

Re: An Interesting Oberndorf 280 Ross [Re: Rule303]
#319352 - 26/08/18 03:39 PM

Quote:

Huvius I can't advise on the projectiles however that is one sweet looking rifle.

Not wrong there!

.

You can source 0.287" projectiles, Woodleigh make 160 & 175gn pills.
As to 140gn yon may be able to hydraulically press a normal .284" projectile & 'bump' it to .287" inside a former?

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yumastepside
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Reged: 25/10/15
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Re: An Interesting Oberndorf 280 Ross [Re: 93x64mm]
#319355 - 26/08/18 05:20 PM

A very nice rifle, sorry can't help with the bullets....any chance of a close up of that rear sight ?

Roger

--------------------
If you live for a thousand years, you still only have one life, don't waste it.

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Homer
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Reged: 07/04/09
Posts: 3081
Loc: Canberra, Australia

Re: An Interesting Oberndorf 280 Ross [Re: yumastepside]
#319356 - 26/08/18 08:06 PM

G'Day Fella's,

Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm Donuts!

Huvius, that is a great looking rifle.

I don't want to rain on your parade, but I believe the reason there are no British or other proof marks, visible on the barrel (at least), is that the rifle looks to have been refinished, and possibly after a new barrel was fitted?
The reason I suggest this is, the number stamps used for the serial number on the barrel, are of a different style/font, from the action serial numbers. If it was original, I would have thought these would have been the same style/font?
This is just an observation.

Now please consider that I am no expert of Mauser firearms and espacially different or unusual types/models, so what I have written above, may be all BS.

Regards
Homer

--------------------
"Beware the Lolly Pop of Mediocrity,
Lick it Once and You Will Suck Forever"

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Huvius
.416 member

Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 3556
Loc: Colorado

Re: An Interesting Oberndorf 280 Ross [Re: Homer]
#319359 - 27/08/18 12:15 AM

Quote:

I don't want to rain on your parade, but I believe the reason there are no British or other proof marks, visible on the barrel (at least), is that the rifle looks to have been refinished, and possibly after a new barrel was fitted?
The reason I suggest this is, the number stamps used for the serial number on the barrel, are of a different style/font, from the action serial numbers. If it was original, I would have thought these would have been the same style/font?

No worries.
I was thinking the same thing regarding a rebarrel. The "1"s are different in the serial number.
Could have been done and as the magazine and bolt face pretty much preclude converting a 280 into anything else, it would stand to reason that a shot out barrel would be replaced in the original cartridge.
I am not sure if a smith would go through the trouble of replicating the "Cal 280" script on the barrel though.
Anybody know if Mauser themselves ever carried out rebarrel jobs or supplied replacement barrels for customers? Could explain both stampings...
Also, regarding the lack of British proofs, I would think that there would be some evidence of the British view mark on the receiver ring too if it was a Brit rifle. That can be covered up with stippling or such but there isn't really a reason to cover it up.

I will just have to shoot it and see how it does.
The question about bullets stands though.
I'm half tempted to try .284s first because I don't want to run into the (scary) problems I had with the Gibbs. If it groups with those I would probably stick with them since bullets are so much easier to find.

As to the question about the mag length not allowing the 160gr pointed bullets, I have read that the original load used a 140gr blunt hollow pointed bullet! No wonder it got a bad rap!
This rifle was made just before WW1 so maybe the heavier, longer bullet loads weren't around yet. That could also be the reason that the 280s are usually found using magnum length actions, Lancaster being one maker that used the standard action for their 280s.
I will have to have my brother pull out the Lancaster to see what the proofs tell us on that one.

--------------------
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2152hq
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Reged: 20/05/12
Posts: 126
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Re: An Interesting Oberndorf 280 Ross [Re: Huvius]
#319362 - 27/08/18 01:04 AM

In addition the font of the bbl ser# being different,,the 'Cal 280' was put there with either a pantograph, or a photo etch/ laser etch process.
It's not a stamped in marking and certainly not an engraved mark.
The methods of marking would lead me to believe the bbl was very recent replacement,,or at least the marking itself is.

Another thing I see is in the closeup of the rear sight.
The sight itself has the same soft edges/buffed and refinished look that the recv'r has.
I'd guess that the sight is the original from the rifle,,
The sight then refitted to the new bbl on the gun now, as the bbl itself has a sharp clean polish and blue.
Also note that the old sight does not fit the bbl at all well. The front edge not touching the bbl surface from about the 12 oclock position around to the far side in the closeup pic.

I'd do a slug of the bbl to determine to groove dia. See if the bbl is possibly just a common 7mm bbl (.284d groove). That'd explain the smaller than normal bore dia too for what you'r expect in a .280Ross. (.287/289d groove).

Though they are buffed over and somewhat tough to see,,look carefully at the Crowns on the recv'r proofs.
Then look at the (very crisp) Crowns on the bolt proofs.
They are different.
The Crown/U is especially easy to sort out.
The Crown/U on the recv'r has 3 'windows' accross it's face.
The (should be) matching Crown/U on the bolt does not.
Instead it has a centered window which forms a 5 pt star to the edges of the crown.

Those bolt numbers look pretty clean and crisp compared to the rest too.
But all this may not indicate a switched bolt,,but rather just a restamping of what was originally there and lost during refinishing.
It does indicate, at least with the proof marks on the bolt handle, that the marks themselves are not the ones stamped in at the time of proofing IMO.

These are things I see as an engraver and having worked in the gun restoration biz for 50yrs.
I've seen the best of work, the fakes, upgrades, the worst and best of attempts to deceive and the worst and best of restoration for what it is,,,to simply put back to some form of originality that which has been altered.

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Huvius
.416 member

Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 3556
Loc: Colorado

Re: An Interesting Oberndorf 280 Ross [Re: yumastepside]
#319365 - 27/08/18 02:12 AM

Quote:

A very nice rifle, sorry can't help with the bullets....any chance of a close up of that rear sight ?

Roger

The fit isn't that good on the corners but I would think that this barrel is heavier than an original 280 barrel so don't know what to think about that.

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Huvius
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Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 3556
Loc: Colorado

Re: An Interesting Oberndorf 280 Ross [Re: 2152hq]
#319366 - 27/08/18 03:23 AM

Quote:

In addition the font of the bbl ser# being different,,the 'Cal 280' was put there with either a pantograph, or a photo etch/ laser etch process.
It's not a stamped in marking and certainly not an engraved mark.
The methods of marking would lead me to believe the bbl was very recent replacement,,or at least the marking itself is.

Another thing I see is in the closeup of the rear sight.
The sight itself has the same soft edges/buffed and refinished look that the recv'r has.
I'd guess that the sight is the original from the rifle,,
The sight then refitted to the new bbl on the gun now, as the bbl itself has a sharp clean polish and blue.
Also note that the old sight does not fit the bbl at all well. The front edge not touching the bbl surface from about the 12 oclock position around to the far side in the closeup pic.

I'd do a slug of the bbl to determine to groove dia. See if the bbl is possibly just a common 7mm bbl (.284d groove). That'd explain the smaller than normal bore dia too for what you'r expect in a .280Ross. (.287/289d groove).

Though they are buffed over and somewhat tough to see,,look carefully at the Crowns on the recv'r proofs.
Then look at the (very crisp) Crowns on the bolt proofs.
They are different.
The Crown/U is especially easy to sort out.
The Crown/U on the recv'r has 3 'windows' accross it's face.
The (should be) matching Crown/U on the bolt does not.
Instead it has a centered window which forms a 5 pt star to the edges of the crown.

Those bolt numbers look pretty clean and crisp compared to the rest too.
But all this may not indicate a switched bolt,,but rather just a restamping of what was originally there and lost during refinishing.
It does indicate, at least with the proof marks on the bolt handle, that the marks themselves are not the ones stamped in at the time of proofing IMO.

These are things I see as an engraver and having worked in the gun restoration biz for 50yrs.
I've seen the best of work, the fakes, upgrades, the worst and best of attempts to deceive and the worst and best of restoration for what it is,,,to simply put back to some form of originality that which has been altered.

I think you are probably right on all counts.
There are proofs on the underside of the barrel, and they look new as the stamps on the bolt root.

The "Cal 280" looks right in style but agree that it looks like it was cut rather than stamped. I will look for a picture of my Gibbs to see how that looks. Hope I have one.
Here's a picture from Speed's book but the photo quality is poor.

As for my comments on the magazine dimensions of the 280, I failed to think that the measurements listed in Mauser papers is for the MAGNUM length action, so, of course only the 416 would have a longer mag.
Still, I was able to dig out some original cartridges and look at whats going on in the mag.

An original 140gr hollow point fits quite nicely:

While a Kynoch 160gr is just a bit too long:

And an original 416 ain't ever going to fit!

I don't know where Rigby found the room to stuff these into standard magazines...

I will slug the barrel to see what the groove is - I'm almost hoping for it to be .284"

--------------------
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Huvius
.416 member

Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 3556
Loc: Colorado

Re: An Interesting Oberndorf 280 Ross [Re: Huvius]
#319370 - 27/08/18 07:10 AM

Groove is .288”
So I guess I should be looking for some 140s but I will try some 160s single loaded or maybe backing off the load a bit and seating a bit deeper.
Now, since it’s anything but original anyway, if it shoots well, I may think of scoping it and making it a real long range rifle.
I have a few vintage scopes that would fit the bill.

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Rule303
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Reged: 05/07/09
Posts: 5061
Loc: Woodford Qld

Re: An Interesting Oberndorf 280 Ross [Re: Huvius]
#319374 - 27/08/18 07:44 AM

Just some measurements.

280 Ross. Case Length 2.59" Cartridge L 3.50"
375 H&H " 2.85 " 3.60"
404J " 2.87 " 3.53"
416Rigby " 2.90 " 3.75" and 3.72" has also been given.

Going by these I would think your Ross has not been opened up like they did with the Standard M98 action to accommodate the 404J and some 375H&H and the odd 416Rigby. My thinking is that any of the ammo of the day had the bullets seated deeper than what most do today especially in the Rigby.

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Vladymere
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Reged: 11/08/15
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Re: An Interesting Oberndorf 280 Ross [Re: Rule303]
#319380 - 27/08/18 11:57 AM

Huvius,

Your first posting stated a .276" bore diameter. Where you meaning your land I.D. amnd not groove I.D.?

Vlad

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Rothhammer1
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Reged: 06/01/17
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Loc: The Redwoods of California

Re: An Interesting Oberndorf 280 Ross [Re: Vladymere]
#319382 - 27/08/18 04:52 PM

I don't know if these will be useful to you, but here are some images from the ol' 1939 Stoeger.

Stoeger billed themselves as the 'sole importer' of 'Genuine Mauser' products to the United States at the time.

These are fresh Mauser actions for builders. Those marked with an asterisk (.30-'06,.280 Ross, .318 Westley Richards, .350 Rigby, .375 H&H, .404 Jefferey, .416 Rigby) differ from the others, having a hinged bottom plate with button release (rather than lever release), but the only mention of magazine length is in the first paragraph; "Each Mauser action is made expressly for the cartridge it is to use, particular attention being placed on size of magazine and the head of the bolt".

This .280 (No. 628A) is described as being "built on the famous Mauser Magnum actions":

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Huvius
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Reged: 04/11/07
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Loc: Colorado

Re: An Interesting Oberndorf 280 Ross [Re: Vladymere]
#319387 - 27/08/18 10:10 PM

Quote:

Huvius,

Your first posting stated a .276" bore diameter. Where you meaning your land I.D. amnd not groove I.D.?

Vlad

Yes. Measured with pin gauges the bore (land to land) is .276” and the groove (measured slugging the bore) is .288”

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FrankFarmer
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Re: An Interesting Oberndorf 280 Ross [Re: Huvius]
#319393 - 28/08/18 03:48 AM

I believe that the 404, 280, 318, Mauser rifles were made in "A" type only? If this is true, this rifle has the wrong sights. The Typical Mauser rear sight was the 5 Leaf type A, a tangent on order or a three leaf, all on bands. The front sight on Type "A" have bands also.

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Vladymere
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Reged: 11/08/15
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Re: An Interesting Oberndorf 280 Ross [Re: FrankFarmer]
#319399 - 28/08/18 11:07 AM

Thanks Huvius. I assumed since you are living in Colorado that you would have provided groove diameter as is most common in the US, not land diameter which is a European thing. That is why I suggested the .277" bullets.

Vlad

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Rothhammer1
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Re: An Interesting Oberndorf 280 Ross [Re: FrankFarmer]
#319411 - 28/08/18 07:35 PM

Quote:

I believe that the 404, 280, 318, Mauser rifles were made in "A" type only? If this is true, this rifle has the wrong sights. The Typical Mauser rear sight was the 5 Leaf type A, a tangent on order or a three leaf, all on bands. The front sight on Type "A" have bands also.

That would be consistent with the listings in the 1939 Stoeger.

This Mauser Brochure (date?) mentions that the .318 and .404 are "made in type A only".

Mauser sights, from the '39 Stoeger:

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