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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Building Double Rifles & Gunsmithing
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DeweyVicknair
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Reged: 29/12/14
Posts: 77
Loc: Lititz, PA United States
Re: Selling a shotgun converted to DR [Re: Dogfish858]
      #320759 - 19/10/18 01:48 PM

Quote:

I'd be curious to see legal precedent and engineering formulas to back up these statements.



"Legal precedent" for litigation based upon liability, in the US? Are you kidding me? This is the country where major gunmakers get sued when a gun they manufactured is used in a crime, FFS! I don't know how things work up there in Canada, but down here in the States legal action based on liability is a way of life. Taking responsibility for one's own actions is a quaint fairy tale from another time and a "liability release" isn't worth the paper it's printed upon.

The fact that you ask for "engineering formulas" to back up what I've said tells me plainly that you have no idea what the hell you are talking about in that regard as well, so no further keystrokes will be wasted upon you.

--------------------
Only elephants need ivory.

Freedom of speech is worthless without freedom of thought.

Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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DeweyVicknair
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Re: Selling a shotgun converted to DR [Re: DeweyVicknair]
      #320762 - 19/10/18 02:04 PM

Dogfish858,

You say that liability doesn't extend to a second-hand firearm? A rifle conversion is no longer a second-hand firearm in the eyes of the law because, the person doing the conversion has manufactured a rifle where none existed before. This is the position that the BATF takes (this is fact, not speculation) and I'm certain that the courts would see it the same way. The original manufacturer (CZ) would have no liability (but in America anything is possible) because its product has been modified for a purpose for which it was never intended.

I do not know the specific material of the CZ frame, or its heat treatment and never claimed to know. Neither does the builder. And, I suspect, neither do you. This should be reason enough to not do it. 200 rounds means nothing. If something lets go at the 250th round, is that still a "successful build"? What were the measured pressures of the "proof" rounds? I'm willing to bet that is also an unknown quantity.

The most common frame materials in break-action guns are 1018, 1020 and 8620 (or their foreign equivalents). Do you know the differences in their strengths and chemical compositions? Without Googling? Do you know what heat treatment method(s) are applicable to them, again, without using Google? Most amateur and many supposed "professional" "gunsmiths" don't know jack shit about metallurgy or about the existence of any "gun steel" besides 4140, which they also know almost nothing about, but it comes up in magazine articles a lot so it must be "good".

The type of material used in the frame is only one variable that affects the overall strength of the frame. We already know for a fact that it's not designed to handle either rifle-level pressures or a rifle-level gas escape event.

The primer failure that occurred in the conversion that I mentioned was caused by a chipped hammer nose, with factory ammo. The owner did not allow me to photograph it specifically because I said that I would use the photos as an example of why these conversion are potentially dangerous. Apparently, his pride, among other things, had been hurt enough.

I don't really care if the OP gets sued, if the buyer gets hurt or if you believe anything that I say. My statements are factual, not "opinions". I might have expected such defensive replies though. As I've stated elsewhere on this forum, many of the guys playing this game have no idea of how much they don't know. As long as it's only their fingers and faces at risk that's fine.

I'll not trouble the board with anymore thoughts on this matter. You all win the internet.



--------------------
Only elephants need ivory.

Freedom of speech is worthless without freedom of thought.

Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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Sarg
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Posts: 1365
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Re: Selling a shotgun converted to DR [Re: DeweyVicknair]
      #320769 - 19/10/18 03:22 PM

Dewey, please keep Posting here, it is great to have someone of your talent & knowledge posting on NE, we need more not less of this & I for one thank you, I don’t know crap aboug building Doubles, wanted to as I want one & can’t afford what I want !

Not ever one has the same views, but only a few have the smarts !

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Aaron_Little
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Reged: 25/09/13
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Loc: Newark, TX
Re: Selling a shotgun converted to DR [Re: Sarg]
      #320801 - 20/10/18 09:44 AM

Ah, so the failure of a hammer tip/firing pin was to blame for the pierced primer. Now some facts come out. Can you prove the chipped firing pin that caused the issue was due to the conversion? There are a lot of variables there that could be easily argued, that don’t put liability upon the converter. Could have been metal fatigue/defect, improper heat treat from CZ, etc. You can sue anyone for just about anything, winning a judgement is another matter. But there’s a ton of speculation on both sides, not facts as you state. Yes, the ATF would consider you the manufacturer. Putting a muzzle brake on a Rem 700 would also make you its manufacturer. Are you going to be sued in the event of any mishaps? That’s grasping.

Interestingly enough the only pierced primer I’ve seen was due to the exact same reason, it was on a legit double rifle, and said double rifle was made with disc strikers that were not vented.

I’ve got other numerous modern and vintage double rifles in the shop, many without venting. Some by manufacturers with large production and actual mechanical engineers on payroll.

It’s a great safety feature, and I’m putting venting in my double rifles I’m currently building from scratch. I’d question the actual effects they would serve in an actual pierced primer event. Did the venting alone save the day or was it that the firing pin was pushed back, thus sealing gases from entering the head of the stock until the majority of the pressure escaped the barrels from the muzzles. Obviously some gases would escape through that massive .050” hole...

--------------------
A.M. Little Bespoke Gunmakers LLC.
Michael08TDK@yahoo.com
682-554-0044

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DeweyVicknair
.275 member


Reged: 29/12/14
Posts: 77
Loc: Lititz, PA United States
Re: Selling a shotgun converted to DR [Re: Aaron_Little]
      #320821 - 21/10/18 01:31 AM

Hey Aaron,

Considering your number of years of experience in the trade, I'd do a bit more listening than spouting off.

I have taught at a "gunsmithing" school and trust me, graduating at the top of your class doesn't count for much.

--------------------
Only elephants need ivory.

Freedom of speech is worthless without freedom of thought.

Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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Dogfish858
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Re: Selling a shotgun converted to DR [Re: DeweyVicknair]
      #320822 - 21/10/18 02:01 AM

I think, Mr. Vicknair, that given your inability to actually answer the questions raised, and the vigor with which you spout your conjecture based on the statistically insignificant example of 1; with the facility with which you browbeat virtually anyone, young or old, who may hold a different viewpoint -- rightly or wrongly -- it's you who should quiet down.

Quite simply, for all your bloviating, you actually raised no point except rancour. You first tried the intellectual smokescreen of throwing a ton of inapplicable fact at the situation to impress us with your knowledge. When asked, and not even in a contrary way, to prove your point, you exploded with more conjecture and personal attacks.

When pressed further, you flew into another aimless rant assuming the ignorance, on a basic level, of myself; a wrong assumption. Most of your assumptions are that: wrong.

In short, the OP has 200 'facts' of no issue vs your second hand 'fact' of one failure due to a pierced primer due to user error. So, in short, you have your conjecture vs OPs facts. The burden of proof lies on you. Yet, as the saying goes, with you, whether you rage or scoff there is no peace.

I respect your work. I read your blog. Your work is superb. But you have a grossly inflated impression of the value of your opinion and your placement in human society.

As dear mom would say: who on earth do you think you are?

--------------------
But what about you? he asked. Who do you say I am?

Edited by Dogfish858 (21/10/18 02:05 AM)

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Aaron_Little
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Loc: Newark, TX
Re: Selling a shotgun converted to DR [Re: DeweyVicknair]
      #320824 - 21/10/18 04:16 AM

Quote:

I have taught at a "gunsmithing" school and trust me, graduating at the top of your class doesn't count for much.




So what I'm seeing is you're used to getting your ass kissed, and when questioned you turn into an arrogant Richard which defuncts to personal attack. Were the students required to sign a paper on their first day stating you are the mostest smartest capabalist person in the room?

I had numerous teachers in and out of school; some brilliant, others not so. Id rather listen to the numerous people better than you who have some humility about them.

Get over yourself, we just make guns.

--------------------
A.M. Little Bespoke Gunmakers LLC.
Michael08TDK@yahoo.com
682-554-0044

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MikeRowe
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Re: Selling a shotgun converted to DR [Re: Aaron_Little]
      #320839 - 21/10/18 01:14 PM

A word to the wise from someone who spent 30 years in the business - we best pay attention to Mr. Vicknair.

I'm glad I'm enjoying my "retirement".

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tinker
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Re: Selling a shotgun converted to DR [Re: MikeRowe]
      #320858 - 22/10/18 12:58 AM

I see a conflict of personal/conversational style here.
That happens.

I've gotten the opportunity to work with a very well seasoned Gunbuilder over this last year and I've seen and handled the product of a blown rifle primer venting into the head of a double rifle stock. It can be really nasty.

It appears as if Mr Vicnair is noting that this kind of thing can happen, especially where dog tooth strikers are present. The employment of gas block disc set strikers and gas vents can help mitigate the danger, but at the end of the day the fellow who converted the rifle might end up being callwd to the carpet to explain himaelf if things ever go wrong.

Personal styles aside, I can add myself to the list of guys here who have seen the aftermath of a double rifle blowing a primer (for whatever cause) and subsequently blowing out the head of the stock.

Not my rifle, btw.

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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Postman
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Re: Selling a shotgun converted to DR [Re: tinker]
      #320864 - 22/10/18 11:33 AM

This has been an interesting thread. There’s no free lunch in this life and the truth of the matter is that a double rifle from a reputable manufacturer is an outrageously expensive piece of kit at the best of times. Human nature always wishes to look for value and financial shortcuts proportional to the price of entry to a quality product. There ain’t no free lunch. No amount of money will turn a Dodge Omni into a Ferrari no matter how great the desire..... I never understood the passion to make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear, when one will always be holding a sow’s ear no matter how much lipstick is applied to the pig.

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Selling a shotgun converted to DR [Re: Postman]
      #320876 - 22/10/18 09:09 PM

What Postman said is true to some extent, but was more true 20 years ago.

We now have well-built double rifles from reputable makers being currently made at affordable prices. Merkel, Krieghoff, Blaser, and Chapuis to name a few.

I am a collector of top quality double rifles, but I also own a Merkel .500 NE. There's no question it is a strong and safe double rifle built to modern standards. A brand new Merkel doesn't cost so much.

I'm a lawyer, and I can tell you if you convert a shotgun to a rifle and it later blows up you are going to be liable for any injury or damage it causes under U.S. law. You manufactured an unsafe product. It was not designed to take the pressures of a rifle cartridge. End of story. Dewey Vicknair is absolutely correct on this one.

I also believe if you buy such a conversion and then re-sell it you will be liable in the event of a blow-up even though you didn't do the conversion.

There is a group of gunsmiths who do these conversions and they have a lot of pride to protect in this argument, but huffing and puffing doesn't change the law.

Mr. Little, let me ask you whether you have liability insurance to protect yourself and your business in the event of a products liability lawsuit? If you have such coverage, would you kindly consult with your insurance representative describing your work in converting shotguns to rifles and ask whether the insurance company would defend a products liability suit arising from a blow-up and pay any resulting judgment? I would be interested to know answers to this inquiry.

This thread is bordering on anger and incivility. We do not tolerate that behavior on NitroExpress.com. Discuss these issues like gentlemen. Personal attacks on Mr. Vicknair for what he has said are not appropriate.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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tinker
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Re: Selling a shotgun converted to DR [Re: CptCurl]
      #320879 - 22/10/18 11:02 PM

I should add, the rifle I noted with the blown primer damage *was* originally built as a rifle, by a high end maker.

Failures happen.

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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Dogfish858
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Posts: 190
Loc: Western Canada
Re: Selling a shotgun converted to DR [Re: tinker]
      #320887 - 23/10/18 01:28 AM

So the lesson seems to be, don't dryfire your double rifle.

--------------------
But what about you? he asked. Who do you say I am?

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Wayne59
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Reged: 20/06/15
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Loc: Lagrange Ga. USA
Re: Selling a shotgun converted to DR [Re: Dogfish858]
      #320890 - 23/10/18 04:04 AM

This is a very sorry subject that seem's to pop up on this forum every couple of months. The simple truth of the matter is that if you work on any firearm and then something goes wrong later on you could be sued for it. That include's installing aftermarket parts of any kind or altering any part of it. In this country if you walk out the door and scare the Niebuhr dog and the dog bites the mail man you could get drug into a lawsuit. Now this makes me wonder just how many of the participants on this forum have not altered one of their firearms at some point in time. I myself don't plan to sit around and loose sleep over it. I have been sued before.

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Dogfish858
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Re: Selling a shotgun converted to DR [Re: Wayne59]
      #320901 - 23/10/18 09:31 AM

If we take this discussion for what it's worth, I come away with a few points:

-- of all the failures mentioned, every one was due to a pierced primer via a deformed firing pin; the issue was equally spread between conversions, shotguns, and double rifles. This caution belongs then in the same category as bore obstructions and light triggers.

-- youth is no barrier to skill; if one Youtubes the various makers, Krieghoff through Holland and Holland, half or more of the makers appear under 45 and many under 40. Condescension leveled on youth is simply unwarranted.

-- double rifles on shotgun actions have a long history; Merkel and Chapuis at least using the same systems for their rifles as their shotguns...CptCurl's Merkel looks to be a 500 Nitro on a 12 gauge frame, according to the Merkel website. I could be wrong on this, and it also bears noting that they build shotguns on their rifle actions, not the reverse.

-- double rifles are not expensive due to manufacturing, think Baikal double at roughly $700 CAD. Rather, they are expensive due to labor in regulation, fit, and finish. None of these are mechanical concerns. It's not a black art.

-- proofing at least at Chapuis is a shoot loose exercise; shooting loose appears to be an accepted method.

-- people are less concerned with getting stomped by an elephant than they are being sued. This puzzles me. I say, sue the elephant. Extract some dime from his sorry grey ass.

-- nobody is above being questioned, ever; and

-- if it concerns you, don't do it.

I had my doubts on whether it was safe to build a double rifle on a shotgun action prior to this thread along the lines of one of the more vigorous commentators. Further research of the topic seems to indicate that it's as safe as these things go provided modern materials are used and due caution observed; it is a process done by many companies and many smiths successfully and often. Certainly it is not an unreasonable mental consideration.

I feel it's also crucial to compare apples to apples; JV Howe for instance looked very much down his nose at classic American shotguns, comparing them to classic Belgian shotguns. To apply a one size all approach is like saying an old rolling block is the same as a Hagn, and that's just not correct. Comparing a modern double to an ancient mutt is the same.

--------------------
But what about you? he asked. Who do you say I am?

Edited by Dogfish858 (23/10/18 09:34 AM)

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Selling a shotgun converted to DR [Re: Dogfish858]
      #320956 - 26/10/18 05:22 PM

Been reading this thread off and on, and most of the posts.

My only "experience" as a user of a shotgun conversion was having a few shots through Marrakai's "Fat Lady" .577 on an Greener Empire 12 gauge shotgun action. Now owned by another member "264".

I would have been happy to own that .577 Double rifle shotgun conversion myself.

The gunsmith converting this shotgun was Rolf then at London Guns in Melbourne. I spoke to Rolf about it and getting him to make one for me, and he said "No Way!". The risk and liability to himself was no longer worth it. And he also claimed, the cost would be similar to buying a ready made double rifle anyway. Perhaps the latter was not true, as a .577 DR is rarely cheap, unless BP only. But he made the .577 DR and a .577/12 g cape gun. But would no longer do it.

***

I can see the pros and cons of the arguments above. For a gunsmith doing it, they will need to accept and understand the risk. For any owner selling one, they also need to understand the liability to themselves as well.

Luckily Australia is less litigious than the USA. And also if a gun does "explode" other risk factors may also be affecting the incident, eg a dirt plug in the muzzles of the barrels, incompetent relaoding techniques and loads, and other factors.

There are reasons firearms made in non mass produced factories cost more, and more than parts of simple labour. Quality control and liability and risk control are also part of it.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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Ash
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Re: Selling a shotgun converted to DR [Re: NitroX]
      #321177 - 03/11/18 06:57 AM

There was a greener 577/12gaugw just sold at the last Australian Arms Auction. Bet it’s the one mentioned in the above post.

--------------------
.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Selling a shotgun converted to DR [Re: Ash]
      #321188 - 03/11/18 05:43 PM

Quote:

There was a greener 577/12gaugw just sold at the last Australian Arms Auction. Bet it’s the one mentioned in the above post.



Do you know what it sold for?

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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trumpetman
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Re: Selling a shotgun converted to DR [Re: Dogfish858]
      #331747 - 28/08/19 05:16 AM


CptCurl wrote: " I'm with Dewey Vicknair on this issue." and

"I'm a lawyer, and I can tell you if you convert a shotgun to a rifle and it later blows up you are going to be liable for any injury or damage it causes under U.S. law. You manufactured an unsafe product. It was not designed to take the pressures of a rifle cartridge. End of story. Dewey Vicknair is absolutely correct on this one."
________________________________________
I took a class in MN. gunsmithing school, Building double rifles on shotgun actions, taught by a Colorado gunsmith. The course example project, during proof firing, blew a primer, which destroyed a newly made very high grade English walnut stock the instructor had made for it, and did more damage to the 12, or 16 gauge (can't recall which it was) frame than you would expect--not a pretty picture. Naturally, this proof firing was done at a distance, so nobody was injured at all. Later, the instructor wrote and sold a book covering the process. Since that time, through the years, I have followed this conversion process too, with 100% of my conversions succeeding, without a single problem. I HAVE NOT EVEN TRIED TO SELL ANY OF MY CONVERSIONS, and when our former instructor once asked me if I had sold any of my creations I told him "no," and gave him the very reason why: "I did not like the thought of possibly having one or more lawyers come after me for obvious reasons, for I well knew how expensive that could potentially be for me, even if I were found completely innocent." He seemed to understand perfectly well what I meant. Too, by this time, through undergraduate and graduate school, through practical engineering machinist work experience, etc. I learned a little of what Dewey Vicknair speaks, so to my way of thinking, he is spot on in all respects, and so is CptCurl.

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Ash
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Re: Selling a shotgun converted to DR [Re: NitroX]
      #331757 - 28/08/19 06:11 PM

Quote:

Quote:

There was a greener 577/12gaugw just sold at the last Australian Arms Auction. Bet it’s the one mentioned in the above post.



Do you know what it sold for?




John mate, so sorry for not seeing this! I went back and found it today. It sold for $4400.

October 2018 catelogue for Australian arms auction, item number 410. There’s a picture down the catalogue list below about 540ish

--------------------
.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Selling a shotgun converted to DR [Re: Ash]
      #331762 - 28/08/19 08:55 PM

Not bad a price. I believe it was selling for $3500 a decade or more before.

Probably because a 12 gauge and .577 has a limited use in Australia. The .577 too big for pigs, good for buffalo, but only one barrel. The 12 g single barrel, useful but two barrels are always better than one!

A cape gun for small game, or medium game makes more sense.

But no doubt an interesting gun to own and sometimes use.

Thanks for the reply.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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Ash
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Re: Selling a shotgun converted to DR [Re: NitroX]
      #331777 - 29/08/19 12:57 PM

A 9.3x74 would be about perfect hey?

--------------------
.

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MagnumHunter
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Re: Selling a shotgun converted to DR [Re: Dogfish858]
      #340436 - 26/04/20 11:48 AM

Just for the record, I have only experienced one pierced primer in over 40 years of shooting. I built a .303 British Double rifle on a Noble shotgun action about 20 years ago. First one I ever did, regulated it and it shot surprisingly well. Almost scary good. I loaded all of my own rounds and was under maximum with IMR-4350 which shows comparatively low pressure to other powders in the round. Anyway, shooting it for fun one day felt an odd vibration in my right hand when pulled the trigger. When I looked, the right side of the pistol grip was blown off of the stock. Luckily it was one complete piece and I found it and glued it back on with little notice. This was the one and only DR I built on a shotgun action with dog tooth strikers. I have built some others since and never had a problem but now I only use actions with bushed firing pins. Been there, done that, seen it happen.

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eagle27
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Re: Selling a shotgun converted to DR [Re: MagnumHunter]
      #340440 - 26/04/20 04:37 PM

Interesting points of view re liability for those undertaking conversions or changes to the original structure of firearms.

The bolt action equivalent, apart from say rechambering or rebarreling, would have to be opening an action up for a longer cartridge, a relatively common practice since the earlier 1900's undertaken by some of the most known, trusted and skilled firearms makers both in England and the USA.

Many standard 98 Mausers were opened up for the 89.7mm long 404 cartridge, the 91.5mm long 375 H&H cartridge and the greatest of all would have been the 95.3mm long 416 Rigby cartridge.
The most famous of the latter being Harry Selby's Rigby 416, at least a couple of times returned to Rigby in England to be rebarrelled.
While the gunmakers and smiths removed as much from the rear of the action as they could, all of them required some considerable work on the feed ramp from the magazine which of course serves as the lock up for the lower bolt lug.

I was always a little surprised/concerned to see the amount of work made on the feed ramp/lower lug recess on my own Type A Oberndorf Mauser when I became aware of 'concerns' expressed on forums several decades after having owned my Mauser, but my fears were well and truly allayed when I saw photos of the work undertaken by Winchester on their pre'64 M70s for the 375 H&H cartridge. Winchester did not make pre'64 actions in 'magnum' lengths, only standard, and opened them up with work to the rear and front of the magazine well and feed ramp. Photos of my Mauser and a M70 in 375 H&H show identical modification to the feed ramps on both actions.

To my knowledge nobody has ever had an opened up Mauser or M70 fail. All of this may only show the great inherent strength of bolt actions or the great weakness of double rifles, or it is all just a big puff of wind.

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