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Frikkie007
.224 member

Reged: 11/07/14
Posts: 20
Loc: British Columbia,Canada

I Hollis and Sons - Fully nitro proofed ?
#314476 - 26/03/18 05:01 AM

Hi guys

Sorry to post another thread on nitro proofing, but alas I need some help

The gun in question is a Hammer gun , I Hollis and sons with a Jones under lever
I did some research on a rifle I recently purchased and narrowed the manufacturing date down to between 1896 -1904

So I looked at the proofs and was convinced that it was fully nitro proofed but reading more and more threads lately I am second guessing myself an I decided to ask the help of the experts on the forum

Hope you guys can give me some solid advice

Is the gun good for full nitro loads ?(Mechanically it looks sound, bore is pristine, locks up site)
Is it more suited for nitro for black power loads?
Is it a BP gun that was reproofed to nitro ?

Thanks in advance

Kind regards

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3DogMike
.400 member

Reged: 29/01/15
Posts: 1464
Loc: Western Slope, Colorado USA

Re: I Hollis and Sons - Fully nitro proofed ? [Re: Frikkie007]
#314479 - 26/03/18 05:37 AM

Yes, it is marked with the expected Cordite Proofs as per “pre-1904” (or actually the 1896 proof rules), there was not a specific “Nitro Proof” mark until the updated 1904 proof rules. The 70-480 would have been the “tropical” load typical of the early Cordite years.
I have an 1899 vintage W&C Scott 500/450 3-1/4” top lever hammer rifle so marked.
- Mike

--------------------
"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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3DogMike
.400 member

Reged: 29/01/15
Posts: 1464
Loc: Western Slope, Colorado USA

Re: I Hollis and Sons - Fully nitro proofed ? [Re: 3DogMike]
#314480 - 26/03/18 05:40 AM

By the by, here is the thread that talks about making pictures a more manageable size for the forums:
http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=296683&an=0&page=0#Post296683

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Frikkie007
.224 member

Reged: 11/07/14
Posts: 20
Loc: British Columbia,Canada

Re: I Hollis and Sons - Fully nitro proofed ? [Re: 3DogMike]
#314481 - 26/03/18 06:00 AM

Hi Mike

Thanks for the advice and info, sorry about the large photos!! I actually had them at a smaller size but I felt that it was to difficult to appreciate the small intricate detail of the proof marks

Kind regards

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Frikkie007
.224 member

Reged: 11/07/14
Posts: 20
Loc: British Columbia,Canada

Re: I Hollis and Sons - Fully nitro proofed ? [Re: Frikkie007]
#314483 - 26/03/18 06:25 AM

Sorry

Forgot to mention it is a 500/450 3.25”

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casper50
.400 member

Reged: 18/10/07
Posts: 1445
Loc: Alaska

Re: I Hollis and Sons - Fully nitro proofed ? [Re: Frikkie007]
#314485 - 26/03/18 06:47 AM

I'd shoot it at nitro for black. Can't regrow fingers or eyes.

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Frikkie007
.224 member

Reged: 11/07/14
Posts: 20
Loc: British Columbia,Canada

Re: I Hollis and Sons - Fully nitro proofed ? [Re: casper50]
#314486 - 26/03/18 07:10 AM

Just wondering what the Brits would have used as a regulation load then?

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3DogMike
.400 member

Reged: 29/01/15
Posts: 1464
Loc: Western Slope, Colorado USA

Re: I Hollis and Sons - Fully nitro proofed ? [Re: Frikkie007]
#314488 - 26/03/18 07:35 AM

Quote:

Just wondering what the Brits would have used as a regulation load then?

Right there on the barrel flats......70 Cordite 480 grain bullet would be the standard load that it was regulated and proofed for.
One can certainly try NfB reduced loads if for no other reason than less recoil.
If you do not have Graeme Wright’s book “Shooting the British Double Rifle” 3rd edition, it is surely worth it for a double rifle enthusiast.
Suffice to say for a modern powder load you can start with 1.19x the original Cordite load using Reloader 15, magnum primer, and either Dacron or backer rod filler or you can try 1.33x using 4831.
The same load of powder and 350 grain bullets will usually come close to regulating as well, they did load those and 400 grain bullets as an option for thin skinned game in the old days.

--------------------
"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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3DogMike
.400 member

Reged: 29/01/15
Posts: 1464
Loc: Western Slope, Colorado USA

Re: I Hollis and Sons - Fully nitro proofed ? [Re: Frikkie007]
#314489 - 26/03/18 07:37 AM

oppps....double post.....damn slow internet.

Edited by 3DogMike (26/03/18 07:39 AM)

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Frikkie007
.224 member

Reged: 11/07/14
Posts: 20
Loc: British Columbia,Canada

Re: I Hollis and Sons - Fully nitro proofed ? [Re: 3DogMike]
#314491 - 26/03/18 08:01 AM

Hi Mike

I do have Greame's book

The regulation loads they suggest with H 4831 is 103 grains , with is I presume is for the 75 grain cordite load

I could not find a cordite to nitro conversion table in the book though(Maybe I'm not looking close enough)

Using the Formula of 1.33 x 70 = 93.1 gr of H4831 - Tropical load
1.33 x70 = 99.75gr of H4831 - Normal load

Is that about what you use in you're 500/450 NE 3.25"?

Kind regards

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3DogMike
.400 member

Reged: 29/01/15
Posts: 1464
Loc: Western Slope, Colorado USA

Re: I Hollis and Sons - Fully nitro proofed ? [Re: Frikkie007]
#314493 - 26/03/18 09:05 AM

I personally use Reloader 15 @ 87 grains plus backer rod filler, 89 grains is the RL15 load out of Wright’s book, & slightly less recoil than 4831 loads. Have not tried the Reloader 19 loads.
Your estimated loads sound about right for starting loads and work up to regulation.

Wright’s book, 3rd Edition, page 103 gives “average regulating loads” and the attained feet per second. The bottom of page paragraph mentions that the 500/.450 3-1/4” loads around 2000’/sec regulate at what seems to be the equivalent of the tropical 70 Cordite load in several different rifles.

You did not mention the weight of your Hollis, my Scott is 10 1/2 lbs.
- Mike

--------------------
"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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Frikkie007
.224 member

Reged: 11/07/14
Posts: 20
Loc: British Columbia,Canada

Re: I Hollis and Sons - Fully nitro proofed ? [Re: 3DogMike]
#314494 - 26/03/18 09:22 AM

Hi Mike

The gun is 11lb on the dot

Thanks for the load!

I have Reloader 15 and will work my way up to that load

Cheers

Frederik

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470evans
.333 member

Reged: 30/03/05
Posts: 278
Loc: Texas, USA

Re: I Hollis and Sons - Fully nitro proofed ? [Re: Frikkie007]
#314558 - 27/03/18 09:50 PM

Your proof marks appear correct for a pre 1904 nitro rifle.

In my Holland 500/450, I use 87.5grs of R15 with the 480gr Woodleigh soft for 2060fps and 85.5 grs with the Woodleigh 480gr solid for 2090fps. Horneber brass, Kynoch foam fillers and Fed 215 primers.

I also shoot Hornady 350gr RN with the same 87.5 gr powder charge. This load shoots to the same poi as the Woodleigh 480s and makes a fantastic practice/deer/pig load.

I hope you enjoy your rifle.

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