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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Mannlicher Discussion forum & Archive

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TexasJohn
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Loc: Texas

Unusual British Retailed 1903
#311224 - 28/01/18 11:34 AM

Just acquired this British retailed Mannlicher and I don't understand all about it. It is very British with the round knob bolt rather than the butter knife handle. It has the original sling eye hooks on the old sling, flat top English checkering, both express sights and a bolt peep, 26 inch barrel, horn fore end tip, trap grip cap. Bore has frosting but should still be a shooter. Same about the pad on the butt. What I do not understand is the marking on it. It is British proofed, the serial number is 475 which I thought at first was a ledger number; however it appears on the root of the bolt handle, side of receiver and on the barrel. I took it out of the wood and it is not marked with a retailer - what a shame it was not marked with Rigby or Holland & Holland. The front ring is Marked Modell 1903 without the knurling usually found on Steyrs; however the side of the receiver is marked "Steyr 1906" - would someone with expertise in the rifles tell me what it is?

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John

"In the Texas Oilfield, everything that does not kill me today, gets another chance tomorrow."

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Waidmannsheil
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Re: Unusual British Retailed 1903 [Re: TexasJohn]
#311229 - 28/01/18 01:14 PM

TJ, what an absolute ball tearer, beautiful. What you have I believe is a Greek Military Model 1903 MS in caliber 6.5x54 MS made in 1906 and then converted some time afterwards by one of the British gun makers, judging by the flat top checkering and the rear sight used, possibly Gibbs who did a lot of military conversions. The fact that it has no makers name indicates that it is a trade gun which was made and sold to other businesses to on-sell to retail customers. The bolt knob is the military knob bent down for sporter use and the rear sights are the same as used on the Mannlicher Model 1895 Dutch rifle fitted into a new sporter type base, possibly with new leaves fitted and re-regulated. It has a lovely Lyman rear peep sight and a British style Trapdoor grip cap. The only part out of character is the front sight which looks quite big and lumpy, sort of out of place. It may have been fitted afterwards, the British tended to have quite fine beads rather than square edged sights. Really nice, you are very lucky.

Here is a link to a Jeffery Mannlicher also made on a Military action which is quite similar. This was an action a couple of years ago, unfortunately I was outbid.

http://www.gundepot.com.au/Listing/Detai...G-RIFLE-65-x-54

If at any stage you feel that you are not interested int the gun, than I am happy yo buy it off you.

Waidmannsheil.

P.S. Kuduae may be able to tell you who built the gun.

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kuduae
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Re: Unusual British Retailed 1903 [Re: Waidmannsheil]
#311252 - 29/01/18 01:11 AM

Quote:

P.S. Kuduae may be able to tell you who built the gun.

My guess: The same yet unidentified Birmingham shop that actually made the Mannlichers and Mannlicher – Schoenauers for W.J.Jeffery and others. Jeffery was a dealer or retailer who did not make "his" guns himself. Instead, they had them made to their specifications by the international guntrade in Britain,Belgium and Germany. Recently I have seen a .404 Mauser with a somewhat "Germanic" stock style with oval reinforcements and wedge in foreend. On the outside: London proofmarks and W.J.Jeffery address on barrel. Under the barrel: German, Suhl proofmarks and a "A.Schüler, Suhl" stamp. So it was made for Jeffery by Schüler.
Contrary to common belief The Steyr factory started to offer their own sporters in 1905 only. They never sold actions only or barreled actions. But all the time since 1892 they sold complete military Mannlichers from their export models production to all comers. British gunmakers bought those complete military rifles and "sporterized " and refinished them to various degrees to their tastes. "Economy" grades merely had the military stocks cut down, checkered and slimmed and the sights replaced, while upgrade ones like this one were completely restocked and had all the bells and whistles like peep sights and trap grip caps added. Many such Mannlicher and Mannlicher – Schoenauers were reworked by G.Gibbs, Bristol, others by unknown Birmingham shop(s). The Gibbs sporters are easily recognisable by their distinctive stock style and a B – prefix serial number. I have seen such Gibbs sporters signed and retailed by other name gunmakers like Rigby, Purdey and Atkin. Other British gunmakers like Jeffery had their rifles made by the Birmingham guntrade. After WW1 there were no more miltary Mannlicher –Schoenauers in Steyr production or widely availble. So the British guntrade had to buy in complete sporting rifles from Steyr and complete restocking was not necessary any more.

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Rothhammer1
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Reged: 06/01/17
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Re: Unusual British Retailed 1903 [Re: Waidmannsheil]
#311275 - 29/01/18 11:57 AM

Quote:

It has a lovely Lyman rear peep sight

The Lyman sight (from 1939 Stoeger):

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TexasJohn
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Re: Unusual British Retailed 1903 [Re: Rothhammer1]
#311276 - 29/01/18 12:07 PM

I appreciate the information very much. It explains a lot about the rifle. The sight is identical except that it has a scallop right were the one in the picture says "Lyman" but I think the patent dates are still intact. I think the Bloody Poms machined the maker off! (See the last picture in the first post.) One feature I did not notice was the gold inlay on the safety which is another nice touch.

Edited by TexasJohn (29/01/18 12:12 PM)

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Rothhammer1
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Re: Unusual British Retailed 1903 [Re: TexasJohn]
#311277 - 29/01/18 12:22 PM

It's a beautifully done conversion (sporterization?).

I'm no expert, but that's probably the nicest 'Greek' that I've ever seen.

The info provided by Kuduae is very interesting, indeed.

Here's some ammo:
Midway

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Rothhammer1
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Re: Unusual British Retailed 1903 [Re: TexasJohn]
#311279 - 29/01/18 01:12 PM

Quote:

I appreciate the information very much. It explains a lot about the rifle.

Here's an article with a good overview of the Mannlicher Schoenauer and its military origins:

Wikiwand

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Kynoch
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Re: Unusual British Retailed 1903 [Re: Rothhammer1]
#311287 - 29/01/18 03:18 PM

Congrats on the rifle! I was watching the auction online. This rifle has a lot of nice features - grip cap, especially the sites, peep. Was likely brought into the UK as a barreled action and stocked there. Similar to my Gibbs (but without the sites). These are some of my favorite guns. Accurate, low recoil, deep penetration and total class. Will shoot well even with the frosted bore. Give the Privi load a try, it's cheap too. Accurate and feeds will. The Graf load shoots well too but doesn't seem to feed as smoothly as the heavier Privi. Enjoy on hogs and deer then sell it to when when you're bored with it

. Congrats again.

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Kynoch
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Re: Unusual British Retailed 1903 [Re: Kynoch]
#311290 - 29/01/18 03:30 PM

Just checked the Gibbs, smooth receiver ring as well. Same bolt as yours. Are ever marked 1900.

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Rothhammer1
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Re: Unusual British Retailed 1903 [Re: Kynoch]
#311294 - 29/01/18 04:28 PM

Quote:

Was likely brought into the UK as a barreled action and stocked there.

Here's an animation of your action in action:
Greek MS Action

These are Mauser actions available (through Stoeger catalog) in 1939:

Here's a YouTube video of an original 1906 dated (first contract) 'Greek' MS in its military configuration:
Greek 1906

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Rothhammer1
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Re: Unusual British Retailed 1903 [Re: Rothhammer1]
#311298 - 29/01/18 06:27 PM

I found a very interesting video on YouTube, part of an excellent series called Small Arms of WW1 - Primer.

It's over an hour and mostly 'meat and spuds' (though he does run on a bit at times). Lots of information regarding the international politics and military finances of the early 20th century as well as military rifles, themselves.

Military Mannlicher Schoenauer

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Waidmannsheil
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Re: Unusual British Retailed 1903 [Re: Rothhammer1]
#311301 - 29/01/18 06:54 PM

Those animations are very well done.

Interesting ad from Stoeger as they list an action for the 8x75 which in a bolt action was quite rare in Europe but must have been super rare in the US.

Waidmannsheil.

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Rothhammer1
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Re: Unusual British Retailed 1903 [Re: Waidmannsheil]
#311304 - 29/01/18 08:21 PM

Quote:

Interesting ad from Stoeger as they list an action for the 8x75

They came a bit dear, though.

Per usinflationcalculator.com, that $100 of 1939 USD would be comparable to $1773.55 today.

usinflationcalculator.com

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Waidmannsheil
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Re: Unusual British Retailed 1903 [Re: Rothhammer1]
#311307 - 29/01/18 09:53 PM

Yes, well they needed a magnum length action.

I am pretty sure that a GMA Magnum action is about $2500 USD currently, or at least somewhere around that price.

Waidmannsheil.

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Rothhammer1
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Re: Unusual British Retailed 1903 [Re: TexasJohn]
#311311 - 30/01/18 01:03 AM

Quote:

The front ring is Marked Modell 1903 without the knurling usually found on Steyrs; however the side of the receiver is marked "Steyr 1906" - would someone with expertise in the rifles tell me what it is?

Click this link, there's info. regarding markings and proofs of 'Greek' surplus Mannlichers:

Hungarian (Greek) Mannlichers

Here's a 'sporter' by Jeffery:

Jeffery

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kuduae
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Re: Unusual British Retailed 1903 [Re: Rothhammer1]
#311312 - 30/01/18 02:42 AM

[Quote]The front ring is Marked Modell 1903 without the knurling usually found on Steyrs; however the side of the receiver is marked "Steyr 1906" - would someone with expertise in the rifles tell me what it is?

Oops, I forgot to tell: This is typical for the military, Greek, production Mannlicher – Schoenauers. "Modell 1903" is the model designation, often scrubbed off by the British gunmakers. Steyr is the Austrian town where the factory was. 1906 is the year the rifle was originally made in Steyr. As I wrote above, Steyr did not sell actions only nor barreled actions to the international guntrade. They sold complete , stocked and sighted rifles from their military or commercial sporter production only. The British gunmakers bought complete military rifles, tore them down, discarded or altered the stocks, scrapped the military hardware and sights and stocked and sighted the rifles to their tastes and house styles.
Commecial Mannlicher-Schoenauer sporting rifle actions can be distinguished from the military ones quite easily: The receiver ring and cocking piece are knurled. The commercial receiver rings are marked "Made in Austria / Patent / Mannlicher / Schoenauer / M1903". The left receiver walls are marked "Oesterr.Waffenfabr.-Ges.Steyr" instead of "Steyr and year of production". Sporter actions have a bolt hold down spring in the right side of the receiver bridge with a corresponding detent behind the bolt handle.
British gunmakers quite often fitted Lyman or Parker –Hale cocking piece peep sights to their Mannlicher and Mannlicher-Schoenauer sporters. Here is a Lyman /inscription removed) on my G.Gibbs "Steyr 1898" dated M95 Mannlicher sporter:

And a Parker-Hale on my G.Gibbs "Steyr 1905" dated M1903 Mannlicher-Schoenauer , both on military actions:
.

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TexasJohn
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Re: Unusual British Retailed 1903 [Re: kuduae]
#311339 - 30/01/18 12:48 PM

Gentlemen,
Thank you very much for the background information. I did not mention in the original post, but the wood to metal fit on this rifle is as good as it gets on any custom I own. Beautifully executed and it virtually forms a vacuum when you try to pull it out.

One follow-up. Given the low three digit serial number, do you think that MS had a serial number range for the Greek contract guns and another serial number sequence for the rifles that they sold outside of the contract? I ask because I am reasonably sure the serial number was applied at the factory.

Thanks.
John

--------------------
John

"In the Texas Oilfield, everything that does not kill me today, gets another chance tomorrow."

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kuduae
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Re: Unusual British Retailed 1903 [Re: TexasJohn]
#311402 - 31/01/18 08:16 PM

Quote:

Given the low three digit serial number, do you think that MS had a serial number range for the Greek contract guns and another serial number sequence for the rifles that they sold outside of the contract?

I don't think so. My own G.Gibbs M-Sch on a M1903 military production action is dated "Steyr 1905" and is Steyr serial number 10156. IMHO the Steyr factory marked their military rifles with the year of production with a reason. Apparently they identified the Austrian made military rifles similar to the contemporary German military system: Factory, here Steyr or Budapest, - year – number, each new year starting with 1 again.This system would date your action to early 1906.
BTW, Steyr numbered their pre-WW2 commercial Mannlicher-Schoenauer "models" = chamberings in separate series, all starting with number one. So there are M03 (6.5x54), M05 (9x56), M08 (8x56), M11 (9.5x57), M24 (.30-06) and M25s (8x60, 7x64, .30-06 and so on) all with the same low serial numbers. My M24 is number 299.

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TexasJohn
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Re: Unusual British Retailed 1903 [Re: kuduae]
#311703 - 05/02/18 09:26 AM

Your serial number information makes good sense. Thanks for the information.

John

--------------------
John

"In the Texas Oilfield, everything that does not kill me today, gets another chance tomorrow."

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Ripp
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Re: Unusual British Retailed 1903 [Re: TexasJohn]
#311734 - 06/02/18 01:50 AM

That's a great find..congrats on your purchase...

Interesting reading all the history of this provided by the others..

Thanks for posting..

Ripp

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