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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Paradox and Bore Guns

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49NORTH
.224 member

Reged: 16/12/17
Posts: 21
Loc: British Columbia Canada

Re: Greener Bore Rifle [Re: tinker]
#312825 - 22/02/18 04:43 AM

Gentlemen; Thank you all for your help, I really appreciate all the help you have given me with this project, you have been invaluable to this project, and I have learned a lot, I have decided to put this aside for now and move on with something else.

DArcy

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tinker
.416 member

Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada

Re: Greener Bore Rifle [Re: 49NORTH]
#312826 - 22/02/18 04:47 AM

Quote:

Gentlemen; Thank you all for your help, I really appreciate all the help you have given me with this project, you have been invaluable to this project, and I have learned a lot, I have decided to put this aside for now and move on with something else.

DArcy

Good decision.
It's always good to steer on the safe side.

Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--

"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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Heelerau
.300 member

Reged: 31/01/17
Posts: 105
Loc: Australia

Re: Greener Bore Rifle [Re: 49NORTH]
#316512 - 18/05/18 08:00 AM

I used to de prime berdan primed martini cases with a short piece of 3/64 piano wire soft soldered into a bit of 1/4 mild steel rod. I do not know if you can still get berdan primers. I would also drill the flash holes out with the 3/64 drill. I was only loading these cases with black powder. It is tedious but can be done. I would also be casting in pure lead if your rifle has a choked bore, at least to start with anyways/

--------------------
Keep your horse well shod and your powder dry !

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49NORTH
.224 member

Reged: 16/12/17
Posts: 21
Loc: British Columbia Canada

Re: Greener Bore Rifle [Re: Heelerau]
#337811 - 11/02/20 07:30 AM

Thought I would update this a bit. Gun has been restocked,brass shells were modified with a brass insert in the primer pocket (as per Tinkers suggestion) and work just fine,I'm in the process of working out a load.My only concern is i dont seem to be getting the velocities I see on other threads. I am using a 685 grain round ball and FFG Goex and 1 1/2 Swiss. With 5 drams and 5 1/2 drams im still under 1100 ft/sec. Should the velocities be higher for the amount of black powder ?

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Marrakai
.416 member

Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3592
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia

Re: Greener Bore Rifle [Re: 49NORTH]
#337825 - 11/02/20 01:14 PM

Sorry, post deleted, will do a bit more research...

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

Edited by Marrakai (11/02/20 01:18 PM)

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tinker
.416 member

Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada

Re: Greener Bore Rifle [Re: Marrakai]
#337827 - 11/02/20 01:34 PM

How is the fit of that ball to the bore?
What was the was column?

You'll need a good tight fit to get the pressure necessary for good velocity.

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--

"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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49NORTH
.224 member

Reged: 16/12/17
Posts: 21
Loc: British Columbia Canada

Re: Greener Bore Rifle [Re: tinker]
#337828 - 11/02/20 01:57 PM

Balls will go through bores with a slight push from a wooden dowel. Column is basic , powder, bottle cap over powder wad, 1/2 inch fiber wad soaked in bore butter, flat over powder card wad with center cut out to center ball,then the ball is set on top and the case is slightly crimped. I use a bit of fletch tight glue just to keep the ball tight,

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tinker
.416 member

Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada

Re: Greener Bore Rifle [Re: 49NORTH]
#337829 - 11/02/20 02:18 PM

Quote:

... the barrels are 28 inches long.
Mr Greener said this was defiantly one of their choke bore rifles, proof marks are from 1875-1887, he considers this to be a heavy (9 1/2 lbs) 10 bore made for round ball and brass cases.

In the book, "The Gun And It's Development" by WW Greener, in the chapter 'Modern Sporting Rifles' there is a chart of weights of bore rifles relative to barrel length
The figures for the 10 bore Double Barrel rifle top out at 11.5 lbs for a rifle with 27" barrels with each inch less of barrel yielding a rifle weighing a half pound less. Given this pattern, I'd expect your rifle to weigh more than 9-1/2 lbs.
A ball and shot rifle could/should weigh and balance differently than a bore rifle, but still this sounds light.

How is recoil with this load?

Does that fiber wad fit tightly in the bore?
How is this load printing on your target?

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--

"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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49NORTH
.224 member

Reged: 16/12/17
Posts: 21
Loc: British Columbia Canada

Re: Greener Bore Rifle [Re: tinker]
#337830 - 11/02/20 02:40 PM

Recoil is not unpleasant, with 5 drms of 2F Goex I average 1060 ft/sec. At 50 yds , 5 rounds I got a 10 inch group 12 inches low and about 12 inches right.I am just wondering if my velocities are in the ball park

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3DogMike
.400 member

Reged: 29/01/15
Posts: 1464
Loc: Western Slope, Colorado USA

Re: Greener Bore Rifle [Re: 49NORTH]
#337845 - 12/02/20 04:44 AM

This is a 10 Bore correct?
5 Drams is a very light load for a 10 Bore, so your velocities are not unexpected.

Are your balls (the rifle’s, not yours) still cast of wheelweights? If so, they are probably too hard to slug up with only 5 Drams so you will be getting no resistance to build pressure, and not engaging the minor bit of rifling at all. Try 20-1 mix, or even pure lead.

Greener wrote that standard for 10 Bore is 6-8 Drams.
5 Drams is a normal load for average weight 12 Bore rifles.
- Mike

--------------------
"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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DarylS
.700 member

Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27000
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...

Re: Greener Bore Rifle [Re: 49NORTH]
#337846 - 12/02/20 04:46 AM

Seems slow, to me. Shooting that low, be careful of the chronograph.

I'd expect 136gr. of powder to shoot faster, around 1,250fps.
The reason I feel it's slow, as my bro's 10 bore Bess broke 1,500fps with 100gr. GOEX 2F and a patched round ball. Mike could be right, about the slugging up of the ball.

Sounds as if it needs more powder, to me.

Wonder what Cpt. Curl gets in his 10 bore?

I was just thinking about my 12 bore, and it took 190gr. 2F with the undersized 480gr. ball in a cup wad, to make 1,550fps
buy only 165gr. to give that vel. with the same ball cloth patched, in my 14 bore rifle.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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3DogMike
.400 member

Reged: 29/01/15
Posts: 1464
Loc: Western Slope, Colorado USA

Re: Greener Bore Rifle [Re: DarylS]
#337850 - 12/02/20 05:24 AM

Just an addition to the above:
My great grandfather's 1874 vintage W&C Scott 10 Bore shotgun with 30” barrels and cylinder bore gets average 1075 feet/sec with 5 Drams of Goex 2F and 1 1/4 Oz (546 grains) of #6 shot. This is with brass cases and 9ga over powder card wad then greased 9 bore felt wads.

.......I do not use this load for hunting in this old gun, just tested for curiosity one time to see what the old (said to be) 1880’s hunters load would do.
- Mike

--------------------
"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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49NORTH
.224 member

Reged: 16/12/17
Posts: 21
Loc: British Columbia Canada

Re: Greener Bore Rifle [Re: 3DogMike]
#337852 - 12/02/20 07:00 AM

Thanks, the first balls were 16;1 if I remember correctly, this project started a while ago, the next batch will be softer. More powder was what I was thinking also, but I was just wanting to make sure I was on the right track.

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3DogMike
.400 member

Reged: 29/01/15
Posts: 1464
Loc: Western Slope, Colorado USA

Re: Greener Bore Rifle [Re: 49NORTH]
#337855 - 12/02/20 08:31 AM

Hello '49
Your first post spoke of casting balls out of wheelweights is why I mentioned it......pretty hard alloy..

Also, if the bores were modified while it was in England then there would be marks indicating reproof. As in an “R” stamped on the barrel flats.
- Mike

EDIT:
I just reread the thread, and found one from 2012 on DoubleGun as well, and realised that this is a very light (I think) 10 bore chambered for quite short cases? Maybe a 4 Dram, max 5 Dram? If it is the same rifle.....
Less than 2 1/2” case length? Correct?

What was the reply from Greener?

--------------------
"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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49NORTH
.224 member

Reged: 16/12/17
Posts: 21
Loc: British Columbia Canada

Re: Greener Bore Rifle [Re: 3DogMike]
#337862 - 12/02/20 10:48 AM

Mike; not much stamped on the gun, there are pictures in some of my early posts, but I believe the gun was built in 1887 , who knows what has happened to it in the last 130 odd years but with the knowledge I have gotten here I will make it shoot once again. I do believe that it has had lots of modifications done to it but nothing that makes it unsafe as long as I stay within reasonable limits.

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49NORTH
.224 member

Reged: 16/12/17
Posts: 21
Loc: British Columbia Canada

Re: Greener Bore Rifle [Re: 49NORTH]
#338018 - 17/02/20 03:12 AM

Mike, Yes same gun, Greener said it sure looked like theirs but had no info on it specifically, when i asked about weight he said he didn't consider 9 1/2 Lbs Light for a 10 Bore.I was out shooting it again yesterday. This time with 6 1/2 drams (180 measured grns of Goex 2F ) I was getting 1260 ish Ft/sec but really heavy recoil.Interestingly I was getting almost the same impact foot low , foot right at 50 yards. I tried to recover a ball or 2 but we have 3 ft of snow here and couldn't find any.I was hoping to recover one to see what it looked like. I think the next batch will be pure lead and a little less powder.

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DarylS
.700 member

Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27000
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...

Re: Greener Bore Rifle [Re: 49NORTH]
#338019 - 17/02/20 03:47 AM

I was shooting 7 drams in an 8 pound 12 bore with 2 3/4" chambers. It kicked.
A lighter load might hit higher.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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49NORTH
.224 member

Reged: 16/12/17
Posts: 21
Loc: British Columbia Canada

Re: Greener Bore Rifle [Re: DarylS]
#338025 - 17/02/20 04:45 AM

Daryl, I have been down to 4 1/2 Drams already, shots were all over the board. At 5 drams things got better, next will be 6 drams with pure lead ball.

Mike, Yes the cases are 2 1/2 and if you can enlarge the barrel pictures in one of my early posts there is an "R" stamped on the barrels in front of the proof marks towards the muzzle.

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