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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Rifles

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Carpetsahib
.333 member

Reged: 29/04/07
Posts: 435
Loc: Western NC

9.3 x 57 Puzzle
#309791 - 02/01/18 05:59 AM

I have a 9.3x57 rifle built on a 1909 Argentine action. I made up some cartridges using Norma brass and PP 285 SP bullets, and test fired them on Saturday. The load is mild and seems to be accurate, but there is a problem: the case neck expands enough to engulf a .375 bullet! I believe the rifle is chambered for a 9.5x56, but has a 9.3mm bore. I don't happen to have a 9.5x56 cartridge to try, so I don't know for a fact whether it would chamber. Has anyone else run into something like this?

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DarylS
.700 member

Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26994
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...

Re: 9.3 x 57 Puzzle [Re: Carpetsahib]
#309793 - 02/01/18 06:12 AM

First I've heard.

Try shoving a .375 bullet into a case mouth that was fired in your rifle.

Trouble with hand loading for the 9.3x57, is there is no CIP law for it. Most stats, as in http://kwk.us/pressures.html use Norma stats which were ridiculously low in ballistics and pressures compared to the other ctgs. chambered in the same rifles, whether model 96's, Model 94's or Model 98's.
" 9.3x57 (CIP) 44 (PSI) (CIP) 38(CUP)

3 other rounds chambered in the same rifles, have CIP PSI's of 57,000.

As to your problem with the large chamber neck diameter, I would use .30/06 cases or even .35 Whelen brass, shove the necks back, trim to length and load one round. The brass neck will be too thick for a normal 9.3, but better suited to your larger neck than proper 9.3mm brass.

Make sure you anneal the case necks and shoulder AFTER making them up.

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Carpetsahib
.333 member

Reged: 29/04/07
Posts: 435
Loc: Western NC

Re: 9.3 x 57 Puzzle [Re: DarylS]
#309808 - 02/01/18 11:52 AM

I have a set of 9.5x56 dies, and I am considering using them with a 9.3 expander ball. I suspect that will minimally resize my neck enough to grip a 9.3 slug. I also have lots of -06 and 35 Whelen brass that I can try. Your idea of shoving the neck down into the thick body of the case has considerable merit.

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DarylS
.700 member

Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26994
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...

Re: 9.3 x 57 Puzzle [Re: Carpetsahib]
#309816 - 02/01/18 03:35 PM

Guys do that with .22-250's they pick up with standard necks and they want to make fitted or tight neck cases for them. They use .243 or 6mm brass, to achieve a tight neck scenario in a chamber that is normal for the ctg. They still turn necks, to get that tight neck, or fitted neck condition.

In your situation, using the longer, thicker cases will automatically give you a thicker neck wall - somewhat. The .35 Whelen will likely give the thickest necks when shortened and necked to hold a 9.3" bullet. THEN using the 9.5 dies MIGHT squeeze them tight enough to hold a 9.3 bullets.

It's to bad there wasn't a 3", .06 case.

9.3x74 brass would work, perhaps better, perhaps not, but you would have to turn off the rim, cut/turn a new extractor groove, trim to length and size.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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szihn
.400 member

Reged: 24/06/07
Posts: 2121
Loc: United States

Re: 9.3 x 57 Puzzle [Re: DarylS]
#309818 - 02/01/18 04:09 PM

Is it possible it is a 9.5X57 and the barrel is marked wrong?
That sounds like a more logical explanation. It's OK if it is. The 9.5 is a fine shell too
obturation of the .366" up to 375" seems like an awful lot to "bump-up" but it may be possible due to the weight of the bullet. Such heavy bullet have a lot of standing momentum compared to something of ...say...30 cal. Maybe they are obturating enough to fill the bore. I'd slug the barrel and measure to be sure it is not a .375" instead of a .366"

I make a 9.3X57 for myself on a 98, and my shells come out with only a small amount of neck expansion.

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lancaster
.470 member

Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 9034
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...

Re: 9.3 x 57 Puzzle [Re: szihn]
#309825 - 02/01/18 06:22 PM

if the brass dont split and the .366 bullet flying there is no problem at all

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.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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Carpetsahib
.333 member

Reged: 29/04/07
Posts: 435
Loc: Western NC

Re: 9.3 x 57 Puzzle [Re: szihn]
#309839 - 03/01/18 01:05 AM

Quote:

Is it possible it is a 9.5X57 and the barrel is marked wrong?
That sounds like a more logical explanation. It's OK if it is. The 9.5 is a fine shell too
obturation of the .366" up to 375" seems like an awful lot to "bump-up" but it may be possible due to the weight of the bullet. Such heavy bullet have a lot of standing momentum compared to something of ...say...30 cal. Maybe they are obturating enough to fill the bore. I'd slug the barrel and measure to be sure it is not a .375" instead of a .366"

I make a 9.3X57 for myself on a 98, and my shells come out with only a small amount of neck expansion.

One problem is that the chambering is not marked! It definitely is a 9.3mm bore, not a 9.5. The only thing out of the ordinary is the excessive expansion of the case neck upon firing. And that is only a problem when I start to re-size the cases. In order to not excessively work the brass, I will have to squeeze the necks down just enough to grip 9.3 slugs.

Ironically, when I obtained the rifle I assumed that it was a 9.5x56. When I actually measured the bore, I discovered that it was a 9.3. I determined that it was not a 9.3x62, and concluded it must be the -56 version; I didn't make a chamber cast to confirm my conclusion. I have to wonder what would have happened if I had fired a 9.5x56 cartridge: would the bullet be able to squeeze down enough to transit safely?

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Igorrock
.400 member

Reged: 01/03/07
Posts: 1649
Loc: Finland

Re: 9.3 x 57 Puzzle [Re: Carpetsahib]
#309854 - 03/01/18 05:49 AM

You should try to push 9,5 mm bullet through the barrel with steel rod. That test tells you how tight barrel is.

--------------------
http://promaakari.wordpress.com/

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DarylS
.700 member

Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26994
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...

Re: 9.3 x 57 Puzzle [Re: Carpetsahib]
#309856 - 03/01/18 05:54 AM

Ackley did exactly that, with a .30/06 ctg. and successively larger diameter bullets, with the then normal 150gr.mil-spec load of 45gr. IMR4895.

He used 1250gr. .312's, .323's, had to use a chucking reamer to open up the chamber neck to hold a .358 150gr. bullet, all loaded and shot with 45gr. H4895. In each instance, he got an increase in velocity and reduction in pressure - go figure.

He noted, that by the time the powder charge hit peak pressure, the bullet was already up the bore a few inches and was the correct size.

Using thicker brass will reduce the sizing 'wear'.

Just remembered that Privi brass (was given some) has thicker necks than does necked up 8x57. In normal formed 8x57 brass, I was able to use up to .367" bullets in my chamber, however in the Privi brass, .366" were the largest usable. The groove diameter in my Husky is .370".

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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4seventy
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Reged: 07/05/03
Posts: 2210
Loc: Queensland Australia

Re: 9.3 x 57 Puzzle [Re: Carpetsahib]
#309887 - 03/01/18 03:52 PM

Quote:

One problem is that the chambering is not marked! It definitely is a 9.3mm bore, not a 9.5. The only thing out of the ordinary is the excessive expansion of the case neck upon firing.

.............................

Ironically, when I obtained the rifle I assumed that it was a 9.5x56. When I actually measured the bore, I discovered that it was a 9.3.

I would suggest slugging the barrel to obtain a precise groove diameter.
A 9.3 bore diameter would indicate a 9.5 groove (and bullet) diameter.

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