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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Building Double Rifles & Gunsmithing

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HeymSR20
.300 member

Reged: 23/11/11
Posts: 245
Loc: Scotland

Converting a 410 Rook Rifle back into a 22 Rifle
#308071 - 22/11/17 01:33 AM

I have been offered a lovely little room rifle that has been bored out to a 410 shotgun. It’s octagonal barrelled with plenty of wall thickness.

How much of a job is to bore out the barrel a bit more, turning a 22 bore barrel and then setting this in as a liner and chambering it 22 hornet or a 5.5x50r - latter is legal for Roe deer. How much wall thickness do I need and are the actions strong enough?

Edited by HeymSR20 (22/11/17 04:30 AM)

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26991
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...

Re: Converting a 410 Rook Rifle back into a 22 Rifle [Re: HeymSR20]
#308082 - 22/11/17 05:50 AM

Quite a simple job, actually, for a .22 RF or low pressure Hornet.

Action strength is the big one here, imho. Seems to me, most or at least many Rook Rifle's of the period lack the necessary strength. You did not note the action's make, date of mfgr, etc.
A small Martini would be fine, but a light single drop barrel I don't know?

BP loads, of course, would likely work just fine.

The .22 Hornet is very close to the .22 WCF that preceded it. The WCF was first a BP round, later loaded with low pressure smokeless loads.

Ned Roberts shot a few deer with a .22 WCF, 45gr. Lead bullet at about 1,400fps, back in the early 1900's.

The 5.5x50R (5.6x50R)seems too high a pressure ctg. for an old rifle.
It is listed as a 49,000PSI ctg., 44,000CUP.
http://kwk.us/pressures.html

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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HistoricBore
.300 member

Reged: 28/09/11
Posts: 226
Loc: United Kingdom

Re: Converting a 410 Rook Rifle back into a 22 Rifle [Re: DarylS]
#308089 - 22/11/17 06:13 AM

Good comments by Daryl (as usual)

As you have not stated the action type then it is hard to comment on action strength, but many of the break-open actions only have one locking lug.

As a Plan B, why not find a shot-out ex-target rifle barrel in either .308/ 7.62 or .303, and use that as a liner? Then chamber it for the .32-20 WCF round. This can be loaded up to 2,000 fps and had killed many deer. The fast rifling twist is no problem.

I have two - a double hammer gun with two ex-SMLE barrels (left-hand twist) and also a side hammer break barrel with an ex- .308 barrel. Both fire the same 120 grain lead bullet load brilliantly.

HB

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Wayne59
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Reged: 20/06/15
Posts: 1219
Loc: Lagrange Ga. USA

Re: Converting a 410 Rook Rifle back into a 22 Rifle [Re: HistoricBore]
#308091 - 22/11/17 07:12 AM

There have several concerted to 38 special. Just a thought.

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Re: Converting a 410 Rook Rifle back into a 22 Rifle [Re: HistoricBore]
#308094 - 22/11/17 07:19 AM

Hell of a good idea, HB, using a .30 cal barrel. A take-off TX1200 PH barrel would suffice quite nicely.

Sandwell Field Sports, or Stutley Bros. Guns might be good contacts.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Well_Well_Well
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Reged: 03/01/07
Posts: 305
Loc: Australia

Re: Converting a 410 Rook Rifle back into a 22 Rifle [Re: DarylS]
#308125 - 22/11/17 08:15 PM

Rook rifles were pretty much pistol calibres anyway, so a 32 long or similar would be highly appropriate.

I'd be tempted to try a 25-20 too.

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HistoricBore
.300 member

Reged: 28/09/11
Posts: 226
Loc: United Kingdom

Re: Converting a 410 Rook Rifle back into a 22 Rifle [Re: Well_Well_Well]
#308148 - 23/11/17 04:08 AM

The American .25-20 WCF is very close to probably the nicest Rook rifle calibre, a tiny bottleneck round known as the .297/250. This had a true .250" bullet of 56 grains at just over the speed of sound, and is great fun.

Of course the Original Poster lives in Scotland (or North Britain in Victorian times) and so cannot legally shoot deer with a .32-20 because of the minimum velocity law. But a .22-250 is fine....

HB

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Wayne59
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Reged: 20/06/15
Posts: 1219
Loc: Lagrange Ga. USA

Re: Converting a 410 Rook Rifle back into a 22 Rifle [Re: HistoricBore]
#308164 - 23/11/17 08:09 AM

A 38special is under 20,000psi and a 22-250 is a 50,000psi cartridge.

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DarylS
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Re: Converting a 410 Rook Rifle back into a 22 Rifle [Re: Wayne59]
#308165 - 23/11/17 09:22 AM

There are a wide # of possibilities.

A .38 SPL case easily holds 13gr. 3F along with a 150gr. bullet- maybe 900fps from a 22" bl.

A .357 case holds about 16 to 17gr. - right about the speed of sound with that same bullet - from a 22" bl.

Both are easily loaded to whatever pressure you want or is safe in that action.

NICE little ctgs. and fun to shoot, easy to load. Easily acquired brass, bullets and powder.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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DoubleD
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Reged: 23/11/03
Posts: 2437
Loc: Retired in Oklahoma

Re: Converting a 410 Rook Rifle back into a 22 Rifle [Re: DarylS]
#308184 - 23/11/17 04:21 PM

Keep in mind, the original barrel can actually be little more than a decorative sleeve if your liner is large enough. There are limits of course.

Remember the thickness dimensions of the liner and the drilled out old barrel are accumulative. The liner will be made of modern steel inside the old steel original. The combination will most likely will be stronger than the original

How thin the walls of the old barrel should be in drilling out the old bore for the liner should be determined by your gunsmith and how he drills out the old barrel. The walls can be quiet thin.

I have a barrel I am going to send off to John Taylor for lining. The liner is .630 in diameter, the muzzle of the barrel to be lined is .710. That will leave a wall thickness of .040, not a problem.

It isn't infinite however and you and you should discuss it with your gunsmith first.

--------------------
DD, Ret.

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rigbymauser
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Reged: 15/05/05
Posts: 1972
Loc: Denmark

Re: Converting a 410 Rook Rifle back into a 22 Rifle [Re: DoubleD]
#308196 - 23/11/17 11:33 PM

I would do a .32 S&W long.

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iomskp
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Reged: 10/11/08
Posts: 119
Loc: Cairns Queensland Australia

Re: Converting a 410 Rook Rifle back into a 22 Rifle [Re: rigbymauser]
#311464 - 01/02/18 05:18 PM

What about 300 Sherwood.

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greenshoots
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Reged: 23/05/08
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Loc: uk

Re: Converting a 410 Rook Rifle back into a 22 Rifle [Re: iomskp]
#311465 - 01/02/18 06:51 PM

i have one in 44 mag

greenshoots

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NitroX
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Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39877
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...

Re: Converting a 410 Rook Rifle back into a 22 Rifle [Re: HistoricBore]
#311472 - 01/02/18 10:19 PM

Quote:

Of course the Original Poster lives in Scotland (or North Britain in Victorian times) and so cannot legally shoot deer with a .32-20 because of the minimum velocity law. But a .22-250 is fine....

HB

I would think this is a key point of the original poster.

HeymSR20, mentions a .22 Hornet. I remember a Kiwi writing an article on buying a .22 Hornet Savage as his new deer rifle in NZ. Probably NZ does not have the same laws as Scotland though. I have shot dozens and dozens of deer with a .22 Magnum and since one or two failures, the .222 Remington. Most of these were farmed deer though. In the wild I would be reluctant to use the .222 unless I only had it in hand. Brain shots are what I use. Broadside heart shots are also said to work well as well, only done one, above the heart for a "halal" shooting with a .22 Magnum. Decided after that fisaco, to use the .222 Rem next time for a "not instant" kill. If I bothered ever again. Was not impressed ie this attempting shots to "not kill instantly" so the heart is still beating for prayer time ...

A broadside shot to hit the heart should work well. Or a bullet designed to blow up inside the lungs. But the problem is if bone, dense muscle is hit and a fragile bullet blows up with only surface wounds. Then a long chase might be needed.

Back to the .22 Hornet. Would make a dandy roof rifle choice IMO even if it isn't legal for deer.

I have a Martini Henry cut back 'sporting rifle' in .222 Rimmed. Haven't used it much. Still need to get it scoped. BTW any tips on mounts being sold, still looking.

From another thread:

Quote:

In Scotland a Rifle has to produce a min velocity of 2450 FPS

This satisfies the minimum velocity (?):

Quote:

Bullet diameter .224"
Bullet weight 50 grains
Bullet ballistic coeffecient .223
Bullet velocity 2,600 feet per second.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

Edited by NitroX (03/02/18 04:51 PM)

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Ahmed577
.333 member

Reged: 13/06/13
Posts: 334
Loc: Western Australia

Re: Converting a 410 Rook Rifle back into a 22 Rifle [Re: NitroX]
#311485 - 02/02/18 12:30 AM

Interesting topic. After years of searching for British rook guns ( double or single ) in original form and more modern or useful Calibres I failed.I did end up with a single and double rook made by holland in 250. Not suitable for my needs. After 10 years of wait Boss have my 5.6 x 50r O/U and PURDEY a 22 Hornet single shot almost ready to deliver. I will use these on rabbit, hare, fox, wallaby, turkey, the odd duck or goose ( head shot of course ) or the neighbours cat. PURDEY have also built a 5.6x52r SxS however in my mind this is outside the ROOK perameter.

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Cjdawe
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Reged: 07/04/16
Posts: 25
Loc: Newfoundland and Labrador

Re: Converting a 410 Rook Rifle back into a 22 Rifle [Re: Ahmed577]
#311556 - 03/02/18 09:34 AM

I apologize first off if i'm taking this thread of the track ...but in regard to Rook rifles ,I recently found a McNaughton Rook rifle,single shot falling block in what I can figure 450 Eley #1 ...sold as Marsupial guns or Kangaroo rifles .

Do any of you guys have any more information on this round ,I have made a few brass from 45-70 casings .

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Wayne59
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Reged: 20/06/15
Posts: 1219
Loc: Lagrange Ga. USA

Re: Converting a 410 Rook Rifle back into a 22 Rifle [Re: Cjdawe]
#311557 - 03/02/18 10:45 AM

I would like to see pic"s of that. The Bore is bigger than any rook rifle I have ever seen.

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HistoricBore
.300 member

Reged: 28/09/11
Posts: 226
Loc: United Kingdom

Re: Converting a 410 Rook Rifle back into a 22 Rifle [Re: Wayne59]
#311600 - 04/02/18 01:19 AM

It's fairly well known that Kangaroo rifles were sold quite a lot in Australia, usually chambered in the larger Revolver cartridges such as .442 Eley and similar. Early ones sometimes used a Snider Action - I nearly bought one at Bisley some years back, but I already had a .380 Long Snider.

Some of our Antipodean cousins probably can comment better than me!

HB

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Huvius
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Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 3555
Loc: Colorado

Re: Converting a 410 Rook Rifle back into a 22 Rifle [Re: Ahmed577]
#311606 - 04/02/18 01:49 AM

Quote:

Interesting topic. After years of searching for British rook guns ( double or single ) in original form and more modern or useful Calibres I failed.I did end up with a single and double rook made by holland in 250. Not suitable for my needs. After 10 years of wait Boss have my 5.6 x 50r O/U and PURDEY a 22 Hornet single shot almost ready to deliver. I will use these on rabbit, hare, fox, wallaby, turkey, the odd duck or goose ( head shot of course ) or the neighbours cat. PURDEY have also built a 5.6x52r SxS however in my mind this is outside the ROOK perameter.

Agree, the 5.6X52r is very much outside the “rook” realm of chamberings.
I (my son actually) has a Manton in 22HP (5.5x52r in euros) and it is much more powerful than one would think. Really, a small deer type cartridge.
Apparently had some popularity used for Blackbuck.

This thread has me thinking too of a couple rook rifles I have that could use a reline or rebore to something different.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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HeymSR20
.300 member

Reged: 23/11/11
Posts: 245
Loc: Scotland

Re: Converting a 410 Rook Rifle back into a 22 Rifle [Re: Huvius]
#314834 - 01/04/18 09:53 PM

Next question.

It is currently a 410 which is just over 10mm, but there is more than enough meat in the barrel to take it right out to 16mm. However want to keep things simple as possible.

The 410 chamber is 11.9mm, with a rim of 13.6mm , so thinking to ream to 12mm, or out to 14mm. I can have the barrel profiled to pretty much what I want so thinking of c 100mm at 14mm od and then stepping down to 10.4 - ie 410 bore daiameter. That will give plenty of strength around chamber, but would I be better just teaming whole barrel to 12mm.

Should I drill or use an expanding reamer.

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